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Re: I partially disavow (was Re: PPC Elevator Pitch for Perl::Types)

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Avery Adams
August 20, 2023 23:04
Re: I partially disavow (was Re: PPC Elevator Pitch for Perl::Types)
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I would like to respond to this as an impartial observer who sees good
points in both projects. Ovid clearly had a well-thought-out, (to the best
of my knowledge) factual email, with real examples of behavior, and very
valid technical questions, presented in a civil way. The restraint in his
email to keep his personal feelings out of it and keep it to the facts is
quite clear. This is despite attacks on his personal project as "fake
types" and the implication that his goal is thus invalid, which it is not,
just because it is a different goal. Could Ovid have avoided any comments
about a specific person? Maybe he could have. But if he had, valuable
context to the development and organization of Perl::Types would have been
missing. I remember reading his email and thinking "Wow, he put a lot of
thought into that to keep it civil despite feeling personally attacked by

How did you respond to his clearly deeply thought out email? You responded
with personal attacks, calling a civil discussion "garbage", calling Ovid
"prideful and envious" (for having technical concerns), attacking the name
of someone else's project (how is that relevant?), and saying technical
questions are FUD despite the fact they still haven't really been
addressed. You also don't have authority to control who responds to what on
a public mailing list.

I'd like to call your attention to a few points in the CoC that you posted:

   - "Stick to the facts while avoiding demeaning remarks, belittling other
   individuals, sarcasm, or a presumption of bad faith." Have you done this?
   Perhaps Ovid could have done better in his remarks on Will, but you've been
   far more demeaning and attributed far more bad motives than Ovid did, which
   brings me to the next point:
   - "Responding in kind to incivility is not acceptable." If you see
   something you feel is incivil, it is your duty to respond to it with
   civility. You clearly did not do this.

In short, please stop. This kind of behavior is unacceptable on the mailing
list. If you have concerns about what Ovid said, take it up with moderators
and him in a far more civil way. Ovid was, in my opinion, civil. You
clearly were not. Please do better.


On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 at 06:24, Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <> wrote:

> Wow. Darren's email was not an invitation for this garbage. Some
> of you really can't help yourselves. I replied because I was named
> directly; Will is not on this list (for good reason!); neither
> Christian nor "Oshin" POC Ovid had ANY right to participate in
> this part of the thread resulting from Darren's email. I ignored
> Christians reply, I can't ignore this one. Apologies ahead of
> time.
> And who do you think you are? A "prominent member of the of the
> Perl community"? Sounds like your prideful and envious screeds
> should be on Fakebook, Reddit or Twitter, not P5P. Most people have
> stayed technical and have been patient. Thank you for that, good
> people.
> But not some of you. This is a known problem on p5p. But as long as
> I've been around, I did not imagine that personal attacks was going
> to be something I'd have to deal with. HA. I say that, having seen
> all the "brilliant but difficult" personalities be systematically,
> run-off from this list for one reason or another over the years.
> Oh, how Perl has suffered for this!!
> Envy is a grave sin, so is calumny. It's also clouding your ability
> to see that "Oshin" (which, btw, is named after a pagan river demon/
> earth mother - speaking of "bizzare") would benefit from the low
> level capabilities Perl::Types is going to introduce. I am sure
> this was never considered, only that Perl::Types is a threat. I
> assure you, it is not a threat to the "validation" sugar; it will
> only make it faster.
> Your attempt to spread FUD also will not work. People can see that
> there are thousands and thousands of lines of implementation code
> and tests in RPerl that we are extracting from RPerl as its own
> module. But it's being falsely called vaporware and being mischaracterized
> as having zero lines of code? You are an envious LIAR!
> I formally and strenuously request "Oshun" POC Ovid and Christian
> Walde be given Officially the first warning for their behavior on P5P in
> accordance with the "P5P STANDARDS OF CONDUCT", as entered into
> "pod/perlpolicy.pod"
> on July 7, 2014, by RJBS:
> Which states,
>     The official forum for the development of perl is the perl5-porters
> mailing
>     list, mentioned above, and its bugtracker at GitHub.  Posting to the
>     list and the bugtracker is not a right: all participants in discussion
> are
>     expected to adhere to a standard of conduct.
>     =over 4
>     =item *
>     Always be civil.
>     =item *
>     Heed the moderators.
>     =back
>     Civility is simple: stick to the facts while avoiding demeaning
> remarks,
>     belittling other individuals, sarcasm, or a presumption of bad faith.
> It is
>     not enough to be factual.  You must also be civil.  Responding in kind
> to
>     incivility is not acceptable.  If you relay otherwise-unposted
> comments to
>     the list from a third party, you take responsibility for the content of
>     those comments, and you must therefore ensure that they are civil.
>     While civility is required, kindness is encouraged; if you have any
> doubt about
>     whether you are being civil, simply ask yourself, "Am I being kind?"
> and aspire
>     to that.
>     If the list moderators tell you that you are not being civil, carefully
>     consider how your words have appeared before responding in any way.
> Were they
>     kind?  You may protest, but repeated protest in the face of a
> repeatedly
>     reaffirmed decision is not acceptable.  Repeatedly protesting about the
>     moderators' decisions regarding a third party is also unacceptable, as
> is
>     continuing to initiate off-list contact with the moderators about their
>     decisions.
>     Unacceptable behavior will result in a public and clearly identified
>     warning.  A second instance of unacceptable behavior from the same
>     individual will result in removal from the mailing list and GitHub
> issue
>     tracker, for a period of one calendar month.  The rationale for this
> is to
>     provide an opportunity for the person to change the way they act.
>     After the time-limited ban has been lifted, a third instance of
>     unacceptable behavior will result in a further public warning.  A
> fourth
>     or subsequent instance will result in an indefinite ban.  The rationale
>     is that, in the face of an apparent refusal to change behavior, we must
>     protect other community members from future unacceptable actions.  The
>     moderators may choose to lift an indefinite ban if the person in
>     question affirms they will not transgress again.
>     Removals, like warnings, are public.
>     The list of moderators will be public knowledge.  At present, it is:
>     Karen Etheridge, Neil Bowers, Nicholas Clark, Ricardo Signes, Todd
> Rinaldo.
>     =head1 CREDITS
>     "Social Contract about Contributed Modules" originally by Russ Allbery
> E<lt>rra@stanford.eduE<gt> and the perl5-porters.
> Respectfully Submitted On Behalf of _Brett Estrade_,
> Brett Estrade
> * Ovid <> [2023-08-20 12:27:57 +0200]:
> > On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 8:47?PM Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <
> >> wrote:
> >
> > > If anyone is interested in being part of the Perl::Types Committee
> > > moving forward, please let me know. We have regular meetings and
> > > formal levels of membership depending on interest, intellectual
> > > contributions, and actual time given. Membership works by existing
> > > members "sponsoring" (or vouching for) existing members...
> >
> > And that's the problem. With the Corinna project, I was not a
> gatekeeper. I
> > was doorman, welcoming people. There were people who strongly disagreed
> > with me. It was painful at times, but the end result is far better. But
> > this strange gatekeeping has precedence and the context is important.
> >
> > Will Braswell is the chairman of your committee. On his private "Perl
> > Programmers" group on Facebook, he recently had a meltdown, attacking
> > prominent members of the Perl community (not the first time he's done
> > this), shared private conversations without permission, deleted many
> posts
> > and replies which called him out on his behavior, and banned discussions
> of
> > programming languages he does not approve of, unless it's to attack those
> > languages. He also banned some people from the group (why I was spared,
> > when my responses were deleted, is a mystery).
> >
> > Worse, he continued this in a bizzare "Perl Town Hall" video,
> > self-proclaiming himself the world's #1 Perl promoter, in a video only
> > people in his personal group are allowed to see. He continued to attack
> > people, talking about how they were hurting Perl. The whole thing was
> very
> > ugly and many people left the group (note: if anyone joins his group, you
> > won't see much of this because of Will's mass deletions).
> >
> > Around the time of Will's meltdown, he arrived in the Oshun project
> > <>, calling our system
> > "fake types", suggesting that we were deliberately ignoring his work
> > (wtf?), and from the video *he linked*, he said this:
> >
> > "All of the type systems that you will find, except for one, that I
> > happened to create, that is what this talk is about, are fake in the
> sense
> > that they do not actually access the underlying C data types. They're
> just
> > some syntax sugar to make you feel cool, or there's something that's
> maybe
> > special data types that have been created that are not the actual core
> data
> > types in Perl that we're going to teach you about."
> >
> > He said this while showing a picture of Elon Musk smoking marijuana, with
> > the words "this type system smells funny." This is setting the stage very
> > clearly.
> >
> > And how did I react? I politely called him out on his comments, and then
> *I
> > welcomed him*. I expressed a willingness to discuss different ideas, and
> > after some discussion, I asked three simple questions about his work:
> >
> >    1. Can it be easily disabled if there's a problem?
> >    2. Does it allow "gradual typing"?
> >    3. Can it interoperate with existing Perl code?
> >
> > Those are not difficult questions, but in case there was confusion, I
> > explained why I was asking those questions. They have never been answered
> > and on August 12, I closed the discussion because there was no
> discussion.
> > A few days later, you show up on P5P to try to promote Perl::Types, but
> you
> > left a few things out.
> >
> > You have no code. You have no tests (RPerl tests don't count because
> we're
> > asking how it works with *Perl*). You have no documentation. You have no
> > specification.
> >
> > For a speculative query, none of that is a bad thing. You're exploring
> > ideas. I get that. But I had three simple questions which were never
> > answered. I asked them again, and they were still not answered. In
> digging
> > through the code, I thought *maybe* I have an answer for the second one.
> > You finally answered the first one by mentioning it to someone else
> (thank
> > you!) and you still have not answered that third question.
> >
> > Given that "RPerl" is a thing that's been around for a while, I would
> > imagine that having the creator of RPerl handy would make it easy to
> answer
> > those questions. You don't need a committee to answer them. So either you
> > can't answer them, or you won't answer them. Neither of those is good.
> --
> --
> SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System -
> #openmp #pdl #native

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