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Re: I partially disavow (was Re: PPC Elevator Pitch for Perl::Types)

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Oodler 577 via perl5-porters
August 20, 2023 18:23
Re: I partially disavow (was Re: PPC Elevator Pitch for Perl::Types)
Message ID:
Wow. Darren's email was not an invitation for this garbage. Some
of you really can't help yourselves. I replied because I was named
directly; Will is not on this list (for good reason!); neither
Christian nor "Oshin" POC Ovid had ANY right to participate in
this part of the thread resulting from Darren's email. I ignored
Christians reply, I can't ignore this one. Apologies ahead of

And who do you think you are? A "prominent member of the of the
Perl community"? Sounds like your prideful and envious screeds
should be on Fakebook, Reddit or Twitter, not P5P. Most people have
stayed technical and have been patient. Thank you for that, good

But not some of you. This is a known problem on p5p. But as long as
I've been around, I did not imagine that personal attacks was going
to be something I'd have to deal with. HA. I say that, having seen
all the "brilliant but difficult" personalities be systematically,
run-off from this list for one reason or another over the years.
Oh, how Perl has suffered for this!!

Envy is a grave sin, so is calumny. It's also clouding your ability
to see that "Oshin" (which, btw, is named after a pagan river demon/
earth mother - speaking of "bizzare") would benefit from the low
level capabilities Perl::Types is going to introduce. I am sure
this was never considered, only that Perl::Types is a threat. I
assure you, it is not a threat to the "validation" sugar; it will
only make it faster.

Your attempt to spread FUD also will not work. People can see that
there are thousands and thousands of lines of implementation code
and tests in RPerl that we are extracting from RPerl as its own
module. But it's being falsely called vaporware and being mischaracterized
as having zero lines of code? You are an envious LIAR!


I formally and strenuously request "Oshun" POC Ovid and Christian
Walde be given Officially the first warning for their behavior on P5P in
accordance with the "P5P STANDARDS OF CONDUCT", as entered into "pod/perlpolicy.pod"
on July 7, 2014, by RJBS:

Which states,

    The official forum for the development of perl is the perl5-porters mailing
    list, mentioned above, and its bugtracker at GitHub.  Posting to the
    list and the bugtracker is not a right: all participants in discussion are
    expected to adhere to a standard of conduct.
    =over 4
    =item *
    Always be civil.
    =item *
    Heed the moderators.
    Civility is simple: stick to the facts while avoiding demeaning remarks,
    belittling other individuals, sarcasm, or a presumption of bad faith. It is
    not enough to be factual.  You must also be civil.  Responding in kind to
    incivility is not acceptable.  If you relay otherwise-unposted comments to
    the list from a third party, you take responsibility for the content of
    those comments, and you must therefore ensure that they are civil.
    While civility is required, kindness is encouraged; if you have any doubt about
    whether you are being civil, simply ask yourself, "Am I being kind?" and aspire
    to that.
    If the list moderators tell you that you are not being civil, carefully
    consider how your words have appeared before responding in any way.  Were they
    kind?  You may protest, but repeated protest in the face of a repeatedly
    reaffirmed decision is not acceptable.  Repeatedly protesting about the
    moderators' decisions regarding a third party is also unacceptable, as is
    continuing to initiate off-list contact with the moderators about their
    Unacceptable behavior will result in a public and clearly identified
    warning.  A second instance of unacceptable behavior from the same
    individual will result in removal from the mailing list and GitHub issue
    tracker, for a period of one calendar month.  The rationale for this is to
    provide an opportunity for the person to change the way they act.
    After the time-limited ban has been lifted, a third instance of
    unacceptable behavior will result in a further public warning.  A fourth
    or subsequent instance will result in an indefinite ban.  The rationale
    is that, in the face of an apparent refusal to change behavior, we must
    protect other community members from future unacceptable actions.  The
    moderators may choose to lift an indefinite ban if the person in
    question affirms they will not transgress again.
    Removals, like warnings, are public.
    The list of moderators will be public knowledge.  At present, it is:
    Karen Etheridge, Neil Bowers, Nicholas Clark, Ricardo Signes, Todd Rinaldo.
    =head1 CREDITS
    "Social Contract about Contributed Modules" originally by Russ Allbery E<lt>rra@stanford.eduE<gt> and the perl5-porters. 

Respectfully Submitted On Behalf of _Brett Estrade_,

Brett Estrade

* Ovid <> [2023-08-20 12:27:57 +0200]:

> On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 8:47?PM Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <
>> wrote:
> > If anyone is interested in being part of the Perl::Types Committee
> > moving forward, please let me know. We have regular meetings and
> > formal levels of membership depending on interest, intellectual
> > contributions, and actual time given. Membership works by existing
> > members "sponsoring" (or vouching for) existing members...
> And that's the problem. With the Corinna project, I was not a gatekeeper. I
> was doorman, welcoming people. There were people who strongly disagreed
> with me. It was painful at times, but the end result is far better. But
> this strange gatekeeping has precedence and the context is important.
> Will Braswell is the chairman of your committee. On his private "Perl
> Programmers" group on Facebook, he recently had a meltdown, attacking
> prominent members of the Perl community (not the first time he's done
> this), shared private conversations without permission, deleted many posts
> and replies which called him out on his behavior, and banned discussions of
> programming languages he does not approve of, unless it's to attack those
> languages. He also banned some people from the group (why I was spared,
> when my responses were deleted, is a mystery).
> Worse, he continued this in a bizzare "Perl Town Hall" video,
> self-proclaiming himself the world's #1 Perl promoter, in a video only
> people in his personal group are allowed to see. He continued to attack
> people, talking about how they were hurting Perl. The whole thing was very
> ugly and many people left the group (note: if anyone joins his group, you
> won't see much of this because of Will's mass deletions).
> Around the time of Will's meltdown, he arrived in the Oshun project
> <>, calling our system
> "fake types", suggesting that we were deliberately ignoring his work
> (wtf?), and from the video *he linked*, he said this:
> "All of the type systems that you will find, except for one, that I
> happened to create, that is what this talk is about, are fake in the sense
> that they do not actually access the underlying C data types. They're just
> some syntax sugar to make you feel cool, or there's something that's maybe
> special data types that have been created that are not the actual core data
> types in Perl that we're going to teach you about."
> He said this while showing a picture of Elon Musk smoking marijuana, with
> the words "this type system smells funny." This is setting the stage very
> clearly.
> And how did I react? I politely called him out on his comments, and then *I
> welcomed him*. I expressed a willingness to discuss different ideas, and
> after some discussion, I asked three simple questions about his work:
>    1. Can it be easily disabled if there's a problem?
>    2. Does it allow "gradual typing"?
>    3. Can it interoperate with existing Perl code?
> Those are not difficult questions, but in case there was confusion, I
> explained why I was asking those questions. They have never been answered
> and on August 12, I closed the discussion because there was no discussion.
> A few days later, you show up on P5P to try to promote Perl::Types, but you
> left a few things out.
> You have no code. You have no tests (RPerl tests don't count because we're
> asking how it works with *Perl*). You have no documentation. You have no
> specification.
> For a speculative query, none of that is a bad thing. You're exploring
> ideas. I get that. But I had three simple questions which were never
> answered. I asked them again, and they were still not answered. In digging
> through the code, I thought *maybe* I have an answer for the second one.
> You finally answered the first one by mentioning it to someone else (thank
> you!) and you still have not answered that third question.
> Given that "RPerl" is a thing that's been around for a while, I would
> imagine that having the creator of RPerl handy would make it easy to answer
> those questions. You don't need a committee to answer them. So either you
> can't answer them, or you won't answer them. Neither of those is good.

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