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Re: We need a language design process.

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Dan Book
January 1, 2018 18:51
Re: We need a language design process.
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On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Kent Fredric <> wrote:

> On 2 January 2018 at 07:03, demerphq <> wrote:
> > Toxic seems way too strong.
> >
> > I think we don't have a process, and that we need one.
> >
> The current model lends itself to the feeling that one has to be
> actively involved in P5P conversations, and constantly observing the
> mailinglist, just to avert future disasters ( either by needing to
> change downstream code, or by petitioning P5P to find another way )
> That situation breeds the sensation of needing to "babysit" things,
> and that's very much not good. That, combined with extended
> frustration, shouldn't surprise people that toxic results occur.
> And I don't believe the majority of people who use Perl participate in
> P5P conversations, nor could we expect them to.
> But the current system is set up such that end users are expected to
> "chime in" when things are bad, where ideally that's our worst-case.
> P5P direction should be good enough and thoughtful enough that we're
> not relying on *consumers* of Perl to tell us when we've done poorly.
> That'd be like running a business where you're inherently reliant on
> the existence and utilization of a well-staffed complaints department.
> Complaints are useful, but using them as your dominant design control
> is kinda not smart.
While I agree with your premise, as I have before, the specifics are more
difficult than that. Unlike most normal businesses, we don't have a way of
observing what our 'customers' do, at least not in a straightforward
manner, other than looking at what's on CPAN and at end-user applications
that actually get popular. So while the calls for involving the greater
community and less isolation in the mailing list are great, they don't mean
much unless someone has ideas on how this can be done. and
similar platforms are a start, but the core issue is that the users of Perl
are highly disjointed across various disciplines and practices which do not
all (or even mostly) sit in the same community forum.


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