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Reini (again) was: Re: Named prototypes (again)

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Reini Urban
September 7, 2012 12:24
Reini (again) was: Re: Named prototypes (again)
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On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 8:01 AM, David Golden <> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Reini Urban <> wrote:
>> Listen humbly and don't get offended. Just speaking honestly.
>> Politics is for managers who have to clean up this mess.
> Bullshit.


> "Speaking honestly" does not also require you to speak disrespectfully.
> Being disrespectful harms the community because it discourages
> participation.  A volunteer development community only exist because
> of willing participation and that requires a degree of professional
> civility.  If you truly disrespect people, the most constructive thing
> you can do for the community is not to say anything at all.

Sorry, I consider what you call "disrespectful" healthy criticism.
This community lacks criticism, and it is way too respectful.
I even dare to criticise Larry on certain design decisions, but
I still respect him.

And since you cannot not really have an idea what I'm talking about,
it would have been good to ask what I meant.

I would like others to engage in heavy technically opinionated
fights also. This is a good sign, and not disencouraging others.

> If you want to be constructive -- even with people you may disrespect
> -- focus on facts and don't opine about the motivations.  For example,
> if something makes thing slower, say "this patch makes things slower"
> and not "you don't care about speed".

I will explain what I meant. You just got it wrong.
I "disrespect" the discussion politics on p5p, not people.
I disrespect the decision process, because there is none.
I do not even disrespect it, I heavily criticise it.

Disrespectful would mean that I would not talk with you. I do.
I go to the conferences and talk all day and night. With everybody.
I would love to talk to Marc Lehmann one day. He is one of our best,
even if his communication style seems to be disrespectful. It certainly

I do not disrespect Nick or Ric or any other, even if I oppose parts
of their work. Ric took my tiny critic with humor, which I liked a lot.
It's a style issue, but not disrespect.
Nick took it with ignorance for some years, but started talking again,
which is good.

I was "disrespectfully" ignored for years with all my cygwin patches, with
the compiler breakages, with my security fixes, with my proposals.
It's hard to maintains stuff if nobody cares.
And best, nobody said that that this looks stupid or is wrong, even
if there were horrible mistakes in it.

It was a general statement, so I cannot say "this patch made perl
slower by x%."
I did this before, but I "disrespectfully" :) was ignored. I was even ignored
when I argued before that this "looks" slow, because others said it was fast.
Fact was, it was slower.

I wanted to express my general opinion that you do not care
about perl performance.

Fact is that that p5p cares more about more important things than speed.
Fact is that perl fell from fastest and best scripting language to slowest.
There is no sign to get it faster again,
while python and ruby surpassed us now.
There are wrong or failing p5p decisions overall.
There is no discussion possible about general improvements,
only tiny bits. Which is good, but not enough.

I will explain it in a blog post. Email is not a good medium for most of you.

There is an elefant in the room and you fail to accept it.
Why do you think does Stevan Little avoid p5p mop discussions?
Ask him, but maybe because nothing good will come out of it.
Why do I avoid type discussion on p5p?
Why did perl6 and parrot came up with formal design draft proposals?
Why do they discuss 90% of the things on irc and not via email?
Reini Urban

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