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Re: Save a few hunderd kilobytes or a few hundred perl users?

From:
Mark Murray
Date:
April 30, 2002 14:36
Subject:
Re: Save a few hunderd kilobytes or a few hundred perl users?
Message ID:
200204302017.g3UKHIoI032520@grimreaper.grondar.org
> > Can we not come to a compromise here?
> 
> One possible solution might be as follow;
> 
> rename /usr/src/contrib/perl5 to /usr/src/contrib/miniperl5

Yes - in discussion the idea has already been brought up that all we
need of perl is miniperl. I'm going to experiment with world builds
that do this, and discuss it on our lists.

For what its worth, we have exactly the same problem with GCC - it
has 5 compilers in it already, and this is climbing. Our toolchain
maintainers are tearing their hair out over bloat and other issues
here.

> Yes,  I want p5-* cleaned up as well.  I just 'grep ^p5- 
> /usr/ports/INDEX' and found 660!  That's way too many (or, at least two 
> of which I have developed :).  Maybe we should BSDPANize all these.

I suspect that BSDPAN is used to some extent with all of these.

> I think if whole perl5 is distributed via ports only it wouldn've raised 
> this much rants.  FreeBSD does need perl in core but not the whole thing 
> and that is the problem.

100% agreement. I have even had a couple of folks asking for Perl 4
back! (No ways will I do that!)

> But rule of the thumb is NOT TO REMOVE THE SOURCE.  /usr/src MAY BLOAT 
> because it doesn't get installed by default (there are already bloated 
> charmingly; 34853 files under /usr/src on FreeBSD 4.5-stable).  If you 
> need size control do so via install process.   I would love to help in 
> this area.  I think just a little tweak to hints file and you should be 
> able to build a minimum perl just by passing right Configure directive.

I'm not sure that is acceptable. I believe that perl 5.8.0 will be
+- 45 MB. I cannot afford to import all of that - I'd get lynched.

> > You realise that you are asking for FreeBSD to bloat itself to
> > unusable levels by setting this precedent? How many _other_
> > modules are coming in? How big is Perl going to get? How much
> > longer is it going to take to build? What other software authors
> > will thus have valid reasons for having _their_ software as part
> > of the base system instead of as a port?
> 
> I don't mean to include those that don't come with perl-x.x.x.tar.gz.  
> CGI.pm doesn't look like a necessity and it may even be true.  But the 
> perl community voted to include it to perl standard distribution.

If that becomes a license requirement, then FreeBSD may need to rethink
the need for perl in the base system. WAAAAY too much bloat for too
little gain.

> Besides, this 'pick, grok and trash or keep' process should be too 
> time-consuming.  perl-current is already > 3000 files big and it is 
> already beyond a power of individual to look through every one of them.  
> You need a better approach than handpick CGI.pm and others.

Sure - but it is easy to blow away directories.

> >> P.S.  I would rather choose the NetBSD way of detaching Perl from core
> >> distribution altogether.  That is far more politically correct.
> >
> > There is merit to this point - make Perl5 a "super-port" (or
> > something), that is closer to the OS than a usual port but not part
> > of the base OS. I have no objection to this.
> 
> Maybe python and ruby should go for that approach as well and I see 
> that's the way to go -- for ports.  We still need perl to build FreeBSD 
> and we got to come up with a correct soultion -- not only politically 
> but also technically.  Your current soultion is, to say the least yet 
> with all due respect, incorrect in both criteria.

We are working on removing the need for perl in building the kernel.
After that, it is just a case of rewiriting the userland utils that
need it (perhaps with miniperl).

> Dan the Proud Member of Both Communities

:-)

M
-- 
o       Mark Murray
\_
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