perl.advocacy http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/ ... Copyright 1998-2014 perl.org Wed, 30 Jul 2014 02:32:44 +0000 ask@perl.org Re: perl 5.20.0 is now available by Shlomi Fish Hi all, please reply to advocacy@perl.org alone.<br/><br/>On Mon, 26 May 2014 21:37:37 -0400<br/>Ricardo Signes &lt;perl.p5p@rjbs.manxome.org&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; But thy eternal summer shall not fade,<br/>&gt; Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow&#39;st;<br/>&gt; Nor shall Death brag thou wander&#39;st in his shade,<br/>&gt; When in eternal lines to time thou grow&#39;st:<br/>&gt; So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,<br/>&gt; So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; -- William Shakespeare, Sonnet 18<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; We are delighted to announce perl v5.20.0, the first stable release of version<br/>&gt; 20 of Perl 5.<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>Sorry for being late into the game, but - many thanks to you and to everybody.<br/>perl5-porters is a really nice community, and some people told me on freenode<br/>that they really like the mentality and friendliness of the Perl community in<br/>general.<br/><br/>That put aside, see<br/>http://www.reddit.com/r/humor/comments/26tftr/ayn_rands_harry_potter_and_the_sorcerers_stone/chvdi9o<br/>- we can triangulate between Original, Randian, Objectivism, perl 5, and<br/>some /Buffy the Vampire Slayer/ cultists who thinks the cynical attitude of<br/>the show on the seasons past the third one (when they graduated and after<br/>Faith was taken out), is what&#39;s life is necessarily all about, instead of a<br/>life of growing from good to better to even better.<br/><br/>What I mean is that we can admit that the old Perl 5 is dead and becoming<br/>marginal. But it may have a comeback, and we should help improve it, and<br/>realise that it was very influential and its descendants will likely be used<br/>for years to come.<br/><br/>That put aside, it seems to me that the Python people lost a lot of their<br/>attitude lately, but now we have to deal with some of the cultism in the<br/>Haskell world.<br/><br/>Anyway, thanks.<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>List of Portability Libraries - http://shlom.in/port-libs<br/><br/>Sesquipedallianism: making excessive use of long words.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/06/msg2686.html Sat, 07 Jun 2014 19:27:44 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Jovi Zhangwei On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 6:32 AM, Steven Rostedt &lt;rostedt@goodmis.org&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; On Sun, Jan 05, 2014 at 12:46:00AM -0500, Antti Heikkinen wrote:<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; LINUX kernel can perform more good if written in not C and C++ but<br/>&gt;&gt; Perl? Just certain portion of LINUX kernel to rewrite? For instant,<br/>&gt;&gt; schedule or support of multithread? If so, should use Perl5 or Perl6,<br/>&gt;&gt; focus to x86 or x86-64? Can you want to join me this my project? But<br/>&gt;&gt; to hear your expertise.<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; OMFG! You are my idol!<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; I&#39;ve been trying hard for years to just get a Perl interpreter into the kernel,<br/><br/>Steven, I&#39;m so curious on this kernel Perl interpreter, would you please share<br/>some info to me? what&#39;s the main usecases?:)<br/><br/>Thanks,<br/><br/>Jovi<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2685.html Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:41:16 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Jovi Zhangwei On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 1:48 AM, Austin S Hemmelgarn<br/>&lt;ahferroin7@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; On 01/05/2014 12:46 AM, Antti Heikkinen wrote:<br/>&gt;&gt; To Dear Perl and LINUX kernel development community:<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; My propose to you at your list: is possible to write operate system<br/>&gt;&gt; in PERL? I am student in university, looked for interest project<br/>&gt;&gt; to conclude my study on LINUX kernel.<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; This semester, I take beginner PERL course and learn power of<br/>&gt;&gt; procedural language. I automate many daily task with use of it.<br/>&gt;&gt; Very impressive ability to make many thing work, interpret or can<br/>&gt;&gt; compile also.<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; Also about LINUX, I talk to much fellow students and professors,<br/>&gt;&gt; and take a operate system course use FreeBSD and LINUX. FreeBSD<br/>&gt;&gt; okay, but they say LINUX kernel is too big and bloat, run poor with<br/>&gt;&gt; too many developer. And too much quick decision from leader with<br/>&gt;&gt; ego is too big and bloat too, kekeke.<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; LINUX kernel can perform more good if written in not C and C++ but<br/>&gt;&gt; Perl? Just certain portion of LINUX kernel to rewrite? For<br/>&gt;&gt; instant, schedule or support of multithread? If so, should use<br/>&gt;&gt; Perl5 or Perl6, focus to x86 or x86-64? Can you want to join me<br/>&gt;&gt; this my project? But to hear your expertise.<br/>&gt; No offense, but anyone who thinks that Perl (or any other interpreted<br/>&gt; language except Lua) code will run faster than C is rather out of touch.<br/>&gt; C code doesn&#39;t have any of the translation overhead that interpreted<br/>&gt; languages do. Perl is an extremely high level language, and thus suffers<br/>&gt; from this even more (although it has been getting better about this in<br/>&gt; recent years). The only reason in fact that Lua manages to do almost as<br/>&gt; well as native machine code compiled from C is that it uses a very<br/>&gt; simple VM that is very similar in many respects to most modern processors.<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>Just FYI, ktap is for &quot;lua in Linux kernel&quot;. :)<br/>The lua VM is pretty simple and the instruction could translate to machine<br/>code easily, the cool thing is luajit project already proved this.<br/><br/>Thanks,<br/><br/>Jovi<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2684.html Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:41:16 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Al Viro On Sun, Jan 05, 2014 at 06:43:07PM -0500, Theodore Ts&#39;o wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; &gt; Since Perl is Turing complete you can run the Linux kernel inside<br/>&gt; &gt; Perl. Although Perl doesn&#39;t run in kernel mode ATM, I don&#39;t see why<br/>&gt; &gt; I can&#39;t be ported to be a LKM, maybe with RPC to glibc. You could<br/>&gt; &gt; also have Perl running as user mode driver or some kind daemon with<br/>&gt; &gt; calls from a kernel driver to the user space daemon Perl. You can<br/>&gt; &gt; use Perl version 5 or 6.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; My favorite suggestion, going back several decades to the early 90&#39;s,<br/>&gt; was those who suggested porting BSD 4.3 to Emacs LISP, so that you<br/>&gt; could run your entire system under GNU Emacs. :-)<br/><br/>ISAGN: drivers/staging/vi[1]. As a TTY line discipline. Surely once that<br/>thing is in, somebody will come up with Perl interpreter in vi macros.<br/>And once _that_ is done, the rest will be easy...<br/><br/>[1] or drivers/staging/sam, for extra credits - as far as macros go,<br/>it&#39;d be more convenient implementation platform...<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2683.html Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:41:14 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Theodore Ts'o On Sun, Jan 05, 2014 at 03:12:17AM -0500, bulk88 wrote:<br/>&gt; I agree, Linux kernel is hacks on hacks with no top to bottom<br/>&gt; architecture. Linux had the BKL longer than its competitors. Linux<br/>&gt; was never whiteboarded before the project began. FreeBSD is more<br/>&gt; organized and uniform. There is also NT Kernel whose API was speced<br/>&gt; out before the kernel was written.<br/><br/>For the record, Linux had the BKL longer because it has had SMP longer<br/>than its competitors. Linux got rid of the last of the BKL in<br/>mid-2012. As of 2013, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD still has the<br/>giant lock (BSD&#39;s equivalent of the BKL) in some of their subsystems.<br/>And of course, in general Linux has had much better scalability than<br/>the *BSD&#39;s for much of the past couple of years, with SGI using Linux<br/>on systems with hundreds of processors, and with people using Linux on<br/>32 and 64 processors systems for the past decade. In contrast,<br/>FreeBSD was boasting in 2013 of improving its 16 processor<br/>scalability...<br/><br/>&gt; Since Perl is Turing complete you can run the Linux kernel inside<br/>&gt; Perl. Although Perl doesn&#39;t run in kernel mode ATM, I don&#39;t see why<br/>&gt; I can&#39;t be ported to be a LKM, maybe with RPC to glibc. You could<br/>&gt; also have Perl running as user mode driver or some kind daemon with<br/>&gt; calls from a kernel driver to the user space daemon Perl. You can<br/>&gt; use Perl version 5 or 6.<br/><br/>My favorite suggestion, going back several decades to the early 90&#39;s,<br/>was those who suggested porting BSD 4.3 to Emacs LISP, so that you<br/>could run your entire system under GNU Emacs. :-)<br/><br/> - Ted<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2682.html Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:41:12 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Steven Rostedt On Sun, Jan 05, 2014 at 12:46:00AM -0500, Antti Heikkinen wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; LINUX kernel can perform more good if written in not C and C++ but<br/>&gt; Perl? Just certain portion of LINUX kernel to rewrite? For instant,<br/>&gt; schedule or support of multithread? If so, should use Perl5 or Perl6,<br/>&gt; focus to x86 or x86-64? Can you want to join me this my project? But<br/>&gt; to hear your expertise.<br/><br/>OMFG! You are my idol!<br/><br/>I&#39;ve been trying hard for years to just get a Perl interpreter into the kernel,<br/>but here you are requesting to REWRITE LINUX IN PERL! That&#39;s so F$@King awesome!<br/><br/>Please do so! And if you succeed, I will personally claim that you have a bigger<br/>set of oysters than I do! ;-)<br/><br/>But be warned, there&#39;s a conspiracy out there to rewrite Linux in Python.. **shudder**<br/><br/>-- Steve<br/><br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2681.html Sun, 05 Jan 2014 22:40:53 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Austin S Hemmelgarn On 01/05/2014 12:46 AM, Antti Heikkinen wrote:<br/>&gt; To Dear Perl and LINUX kernel development community:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; My propose to you at your list: is possible to write operate system<br/>&gt; in PERL? I am student in university, looked for interest project<br/>&gt; to conclude my study on LINUX kernel.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; This semester, I take beginner PERL course and learn power of <br/>&gt; procedural language. I automate many daily task with use of it.<br/>&gt; Very impressive ability to make many thing work, interpret or can<br/>&gt; compile also.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Also about LINUX, I talk to much fellow students and professors,<br/>&gt; and take a operate system course use FreeBSD and LINUX. FreeBSD<br/>&gt; okay, but they say LINUX kernel is too big and bloat, run poor with<br/>&gt; too many developer. And too much quick decision from leader with<br/>&gt; ego is too big and bloat too, kekeke.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; LINUX kernel can perform more good if written in not C and C++ but <br/>&gt; Perl? Just certain portion of LINUX kernel to rewrite? For<br/>&gt; instant, schedule or support of multithread? If so, should use<br/>&gt; Perl5 or Perl6, focus to x86 or x86-64? Can you want to join me<br/>&gt; this my project? But to hear your expertise.<br/>No offense, but anyone who thinks that Perl (or any other interpreted<br/>language except Lua) code will run faster than C is rather out of touch.<br/> C code doesn&#39;t have any of the translation overhead that interpreted<br/>languages do. Perl is an extremely high level language, and thus suffers<br/>from this even more (although it has been getting better about this in<br/>recent years). The only reason in fact that Lua manages to do almost as<br/>well as native machine code compiled from C is that it uses a very<br/>simple VM that is very similar in many respects to most modern processors.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Am excited to learn and begin study project. Can you want to join<br/>&gt; this my project? Please direct reply of email to myself.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Much thank to you, Antti Heikkinen<br/>While I personally would never advocate a beginner trying to write an<br/>entire OS because it is a HUGE undertaking (even more so in an<br/>interpreted language like Perl), you might look into running Perl on<br/>top of a micro-kernel like L4. This would allow you to run Perl in<br/>Ring 0/Kernel Mode. If you wanted to use Lua instead (It&#39;s amazingly<br/>easy to learn) then L4 would definitely be a good choice because the<br/>init program for it already uses Lua.<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2680.html Sun, 05 Jan 2014 22:40:52 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by bulk88 Antti Heikkinen wrote:<br/>&gt; To Dear Perl and LINUX kernel development community:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; My propose to you at your list: is possible to write operate system in<br/>&gt; PERL? I am student in university, looked for interest project to<br/>&gt; conclude my study on LINUX kernel.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; This semester, I take beginner PERL course and learn power of<br/>&gt; procedural language. I automate many daily task with use of it. Very<br/>&gt; impressive ability to make many thing work, interpret or can compile<br/>&gt; also.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Also about LINUX, I talk to much fellow students and professors, and<br/>&gt; take a operate system course use FreeBSD and LINUX. FreeBSD okay, but<br/>&gt; they say LINUX kernel is too big and bloat, run poor with too many<br/>&gt; developer. And too much quick decision from leader with ego is too big<br/>&gt; and bloat too, kekeke.<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>I agree, Linux kernel is hacks on hacks with no top to bottom <br/>architecture. Linux had the BKL longer than its competitors. Linux was <br/>never whiteboarded before the project began. FreeBSD is more organized <br/>and uniform. There is also NT Kernel whose API was speced out before the <br/>kernel was written.<br/><br/>&gt; LINUX kernel can perform more good if written in not C and C++ but<br/>&gt; Perl? Just certain portion of LINUX kernel to rewrite? For instant,<br/>&gt; schedule or support of multithread? If so, should use Perl5 or Perl6,<br/>&gt; focus to x86 or x86-64? Can you want to join me this my project? But<br/>&gt; to hear your expertise.<br/><br/>Since Perl is Turing complete you can run the Linux kernel inside Perl. <br/>Although Perl doesn&#39;t run in kernel mode ATM, I don&#39;t see why I can&#39;t be <br/>ported to be a LKM, maybe with RPC to glibc. You could also have Perl <br/>running as user mode driver or some kind daemon with calls from a kernel <br/>driver to the user space daemon Perl. You can use Perl version 5 or 6.<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2679.html Sun, 05 Jan 2014 22:29:41 +0000 Re: Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Richard Foley A useful Monks link here:<br/><br/> http://www.perlmonks.org/?node=339754<br/><br/>and:<br/><br/> http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol5_2/tpj0502-0009.html<br/><br/>-- <br/>Ciao<br/><br/>Richard Foley<br/><br/>http://www.rfi.net/books.html<br/><br/>On Sun, Jan 05, 2014 at 12:46:00AM -0500, Antti Heikkinen wrote:<br/>&gt; To Dear Perl and LINUX kernel development community:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; My propose to you at your list: is possible to write operate system in<br/>&gt; PERL? I am student in university, looked for interest project to<br/>&gt; conclude my study on LINUX kernel.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; This semester, I take beginner PERL course and learn power of<br/>&gt; procedural language. I automate many daily task with use of it. Very<br/>&gt; impressive ability to make many thing work, interpret or can compile<br/>&gt; also.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Also about LINUX, I talk to much fellow students and professors, and<br/>&gt; take a operate system course use FreeBSD and LINUX. FreeBSD okay, but<br/>&gt; they say LINUX kernel is too big and bloat, run poor with too many<br/>&gt; developer. And too much quick decision from leader with ego is too big<br/>&gt; and bloat too, kekeke.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; LINUX kernel can perform more good if written in not C and C++ but<br/>&gt; Perl? Just certain portion of LINUX kernel to rewrite? For instant,<br/>&gt; schedule or support of multithread? If so, should use Perl5 or Perl6,<br/>&gt; focus to x86 or x86-64? Can you want to join me this my project? But<br/>&gt; to hear your expertise.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Am excited to learn and begin study project. Can you want to join this<br/>&gt; my project? Please direct reply of email to myself.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Much thank to you,<br/>&gt; Antti Heikkinen<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2678.html Sun, 05 Jan 2014 08:51:08 +0000 Propose for LINUX kernel and PERL by Antti Heikkinen To Dear Perl and LINUX kernel development community:<br/><br/>My propose to you at your list: is possible to write operate system in<br/>PERL? I am student in university, looked for interest project to<br/>conclude my study on LINUX kernel.<br/><br/>This semester, I take beginner PERL course and learn power of<br/>procedural language. I automate many daily task with use of it. Very<br/>impressive ability to make many thing work, interpret or can compile<br/>also.<br/><br/>Also about LINUX, I talk to much fellow students and professors, and<br/>take a operate system course use FreeBSD and LINUX. FreeBSD okay, but<br/>they say LINUX kernel is too big and bloat, run poor with too many<br/>developer. And too much quick decision from leader with ego is too big<br/>and bloat too, kekeke.<br/><br/>LINUX kernel can perform more good if written in not C and C++ but<br/>Perl? Just certain portion of LINUX kernel to rewrite? For instant,<br/>schedule or support of multithread? If so, should use Perl5 or Perl6,<br/>focus to x86 or x86-64? Can you want to join me this my project? But<br/>to hear your expertise.<br/><br/>Am excited to learn and begin study project. Can you want to join this<br/>my project? Please direct reply of email to myself.<br/><br/>Much thank to you,<br/>Antti Heikkinen<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2014/01/msg2677.html Sun, 05 Jan 2014 05:46:06 +0000 Fw: Funding & Feature Request Management For Open Source by Shlomi Fish Begin forwarded message:<br/><br/>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 02:33:42 -0500<br/>From: James Clark &lt;james.clark@cvalka.com&gt;<br/>To: Shlomi Fish &lt;shlomif@shlomifish.org&gt;<br/>Cc: Antuan Shakhin &lt;antuan.shakhin@cvalka.com&gt;<br/>Subject: Re: Funding &amp; Feature Request Management For Open Source<br/><br/><br/>Hi Shlomi,<br/><br/>So far everything has gone smoothly with developers adding projects and<br/>users making pledges. If the offer is still good we would like to take you<br/>up on forwarding the message (found below) about Catincan&#39;s beta launch to<br/>the mailing lists you&#39;re on.<br/><br/>Thanks again,<br/>James<br/><br/>------------------<br/>Just wanted to let you know that the beta of www.catincan.com -<br/>crowdfunding for *existing* open source projects, has launched.<br/><br/>2 Big Things:<br/>1. All Catincan fees will be waived for the first 6 months for all projects.<br/>2. The first 25 projects that have a new feature funded will have the<br/>10% successful funding *fee waived for life*.<br/><br/>If you know any developer that has an open source project and could<br/>use some funding, please pass this along so they can be one of the first 25<br/>as well.<br/><br/>Last, we just want to be clear that on Catincan, only developers<br/>on existing open source projects can put new features up for<br/>crowdfunding. Users can of course send you messages to request features,<br/>but developers remain 100% in control of their projects. We just want to<br/>help more open source projects grow and thrive.<br/><br/>Thanks,<br/>James<br/><br/>On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 10:25 PM, James Clark &lt;james.clark@cvalka.com&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; Hi Shlomi,<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; Thank you for offering to do that! We&#39;re all set to go live tomorrow but<br/>&gt; are still worried there might be some bugs and don&#39;t want to lose any<br/>&gt; credibility. I hope your offer will still be good once we know everything<br/>&gt; is working properly after this soft launch (hopefully just a few days or<br/>&gt; so).<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; Thanks again!<br/>&gt; James<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Shlomi Fish &lt;shlomif@shlomifish.org&gt;wrote:<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; Hi James,<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; thanks for letting me know - what you described below sounds really good.<br/>&gt;&gt; If<br/>&gt;&gt; you want, I can spread the word by forwarding your E-mail to some mailing<br/>&gt;&gt; lists.<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; Regards,<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; Shlomi Fish<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; On Tue, 5 Feb 2013 18:58:56 -0500<br/>&gt;&gt; James Clark &lt;james.clark@cvalka.com&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Shlomi,<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; You said you would definitely give a funding platform for open source<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; projects a try so wanted to let you know that we&#39;re launching the beta<br/>&gt;&gt; of<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; www.catincan.com - crowdfunding for *existing* open source projects,<br/>&gt;&gt; within<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; the next 24 hours.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; 2 Big Things:<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; 1. All Catincan fees will be waived for the first 6 months for all<br/>&gt;&gt; projects.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; 2. The first 25 projects that have a new feature funded will have the<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; 10% successful funding *fee waived for life*.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; If you know any developer that has an open source project and could use<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; some funding, please pass this along so they can be one of the first 25<br/>&gt;&gt; as<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; well.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; Lastly, we just want to be clear that on Catincan, only developers on<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; existing open source projects can put new features up for crowdfunding.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; Users can of course send you messages to request features, but<br/>&gt;&gt; developers<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; remain 100% in control of their projects. We just want to help more open<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; source projects grow and thrive.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; James<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:18 AM, James Clark &lt;james.clark@cvalka.com&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Shlomi,<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks for responding - it helps us understand what problems open<br/>&gt;&gt; source<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; developers have to keep us on the right track. Our vision is to have<br/>&gt;&gt; open<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; source developers in charge of their projects but encourage users to<br/>&gt;&gt; fund<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; the features they need most. We will definitely keep you posted and<br/>&gt;&gt; hope<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; that you will find the project useful. When it launches we will<br/>&gt;&gt; definitely<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; let you know.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; James<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; =================================<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi James,<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; let me answer your questions as best as I can.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 23:38:17 -0700 (PDT)<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; james.clark@catincan.com wrote:<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi,<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We are building a web based tool to help open source projects with<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; feature requests &amp; funding (www.catincan.com). We&#39;re hoping you might<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; provide us with some insight by answering the 5 questions below.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; 1. Do you have a problem managing feature requests (time it<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; takes/prioritizing)?<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I don&amp;apos;t have such a problem. On the other hand, most of the<br/>&gt;&gt; projects<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I am managing are small-scale and don&amp;apos;t take a lot of time to<br/>&gt;&gt; manage.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Normally, feature requests are done using E-mail or using the issue<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; tracker.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Well, my projects don&amp;apos;t require a lot of funding, but,<br/>&gt;&gt; naturally, it<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; would have been preferable if I could make a living out of my<br/>&gt;&gt; open-source<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; work.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Well, I think a way for people to bid or offer money on feature<br/>&gt;&gt; requests<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; (or bug fixes) for the projects would be appreciated.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I would use it, yes. Or at least refer people to it on the home page.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Well, with Freecell Solver ( http://fc-solve.shlomifish.org/ ),<br/>&gt;&gt; currently<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; there is a problem that people run into problems understanding why<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; composite multi-card moves are legal in the solution. This was solved<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; to a large extent with a move expander, but there&amp;apos;s now the<br/>&gt;&gt; issue of<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; integrating it with the core solver.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Other projects have different issues.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; OK.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Regards,<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Shlomi Fish<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; --<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Freecell Solver - http://fc-solve.shlomifish.org/<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; COBOL is the old Java.<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Please reply to list if it&amp;apos;s a mailing list post -<br/>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; http://shlom.in/reply<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; --<br/>&gt;&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>&gt;&gt; Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>&gt;&gt; Perl Humour - http://perl-begin.org/humour/<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; &lt;rindolf&gt; If you repeat a scene 50k times, then the movie will have less<br/>&gt;&gt; entropy and will compress better. ( irc://irc.freenode.org/#perlcafe )<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt; Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply.<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt;<br/><br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan<br/><br/>There is no IGLU Cabal! Home&#x2010;made Cabals eventually superseded the power and<br/>influence of the original IGLU Cabal, which was considered a cutting edge<br/>development at its time.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/><br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2676.html Sun, 17 Feb 2013 21:43:43 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Shlomi Fish Hi Dave,<br/><br/>On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 15:43:43 -0600 (CST)<br/>Dave Rolsky &lt;autarch@urth.org&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; On Sat, 9 Feb 2013, Elaine Ashton wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; Shlomi you aren&#39;t the fruit of my loins nor are you, thankfully, the <br/>&gt; &gt; last person on earth. I can wait for the right person to give it to <br/>&gt; &gt; instead of the only person. If you have any more self-referencing quotes <br/>&gt; &gt; save them for someone else.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; So ... speaking of flame wars driving people in the community away, could <br/>&gt; you (Elaine and Shlomi) please stop this one now.<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>sure, the previous message I sent is going to be the last one from me. I<br/>apologise if any one was offended by my opinionated posts, and I am sorry if<br/>anyone has any insurmountable problems with my personality and online<br/>behaviour (which I admit is far from being perfect). Thanks to all the people<br/>for their useful and insightful posts about the original thread and the<br/>sub-thread of encouraging females in the FOSS/free-content worlds.<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>What Makes Software Apps High Quality - http://shlom.in/sw-quality<br/><br/>Flock aims to be the browser for the social web, but I found it to be the<br/>completely anti-social browser.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2675.html Sun, 10 Feb 2013 07:27:28 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Shlomi Fish Hi Elaine,<br/><br/>[risking top-posting]<br/><br/>I need to deal with people with personality faults on a daily basis: on IRC, on<br/>IM, in real life, in E-mail, etc. I&#39;m not always happy from their behaviour,<br/>but I try to deal with it intelligently and wisely. I don&#39;t blame all of<br/>Freenode&#39;s #perl faults on https://metacpan.org/author/MSTROUT or on<br/>https://metacpan.org/author/APEIRON or on thrig (= our channel master) or<br/>on Su-Shee or on popl or whoever, because while they have their faults, they<br/>still are essentially good people, and I try to find ways to overcome their<br/>issues as best as I can.<br/><br/>Similarly, I admitted that I have the personality faults that you mentioned,<br/>but they are not insurmountable, and you can learn to cope with them instead of<br/>blaming everything that is wrong in this world on me (which seems incredibly<br/>silly and ridiculous when you think about it). In my entire time of<br/>contributing to the Perl and open-source/open-content community, I was able to<br/>make a lot of friends, and also was able turn some of my former enemies into<br/>either friends, or at least people who agree to collaborate with me and<br/>tolerate me.<br/><br/>Would you agree to try to do the same? <br/><br/>Here is an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If%E2%80%94 by Rudyard<br/>Kipling:<br/><br/>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<br/>If you can keep your head when all about you<br/>Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;<br/>If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,<br/>But make allowance for their doubting too:<br/>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br/><br/>And here is what Marcus Aurelius wrote<br/>about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism :<br/><br/>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<br/>Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent,<br/>treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them<br/>through ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of<br/>them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman<br/>or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together...<br/>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br/><br/>It&#39;s always the most effortless solution to expect the world to change<br/>according to your whims, but that usually won&#39;t happen and will only leave you<br/>feeling bitter and have wishful thinking and unreal fantasies, and will leave<br/>you as helpless as you are. In the long run, it is more constructive to handle<br/>problematic people and situations with tolerance, acceptance, rationality and<br/>some creative thinking.<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/>[SNIPPED]<br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>My Public Domain Photos - http://www.flickr.com/photos/shlomif/<br/><br/>Chuck Norris is the greatest man in history. He killed all the great men who<br/>could ever pose a competition.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2674.html Sun, 10 Feb 2013 06:47:16 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Dave Rolsky On Sat, 9 Feb 2013, Elaine Ashton wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; Shlomi you aren&#39;t the fruit of my loins nor are you, thankfully, the <br/>&gt; last person on earth. I can wait for the right person to give it to <br/>&gt; instead of the only person. If you have any more self-referencing quotes <br/>&gt; save them for someone else.<br/><br/>So ... speaking of flame wars driving people in the community away, could <br/>you (Elaine and Shlomi) please stop this one now.<br/><br/><br/>Thanks,<br/><br/>-dave<br/><br/>/*============================================================<br/>http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org<br/>Your guide to all that&#39;s veg House Absolute(ly Pointless)<br/>============================================================*/<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2673.html Sat, 09 Feb 2013 21:43:53 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Elaine Ashton Shlomi you aren&#39;t the fruit of my loins nor are you, thankfully, the last person on earth. I can wait for the right person to give it to instead of the only person. If you have any more self-referencing quotes save them for someone else.<br/><br/>e.<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2672.html Sat, 09 Feb 2013 08:40:56 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Shlomi Fish Hi Elaine,<br/><br/>thanks for your message. See below for my response.<br/><br/>On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:03:40 -0500<br/>Elaine Ashton &lt;eashton@mac.com&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:56 PM, Jacinta Richardson &lt;jarich@perltraining.com.au&gt;<br/>&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; &gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; There&#39;s another key difference that should be recognised, and the situation<br/>&gt; &gt; isn&#39;t that there is a dire shortage of women who know Perl (25-30% of Perl<br/>&gt; &gt; programmers out in business), there&#39;s a dire shortage of women involved in<br/>&gt; &gt; the Perl community. (between 2 and 6%) The tenacious women are learning<br/>&gt; &gt; Perl, they&#39;re just doing so for work. Not for fun. <br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; I&#39;d say that the percentage is higher as women are very well represented in<br/>&gt; system administration where perl remains a very common tool, but as plumbers<br/>&gt; we aren&#39;t thought of until something breaks. I&#39;m one of those crabby sorts<br/>&gt; and I was pleasantly surprised by the perl folks at the first perl conference<br/>&gt; since I had spent years lurking as a male persona on irc and usenet. I&#39;ll<br/>&gt; admit the linguistic nerdery drew me in, but the whisky snobbery certainly<br/>&gt; sealed the deal. I think the appeal of the perl community is the wide variety<br/>&gt; of interests and the curiosity for more. The fun of the perl community isn&#39;t<br/>&gt; with perl but with everything else.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; I will also say that I gave up on many things not because it wasn&#39;t fun but<br/>&gt; because there are those who don&#39;t have basic social graces and who make the<br/>&gt; thought of going to the dentist vs doing something for the perl community a<br/>&gt; no-contest idea...at least the dentist offers painkillers and a smile. <br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Since I&#39;m on about telling the truth and trying to guilt the silent into<br/>&gt; believing that silence is not a helpful act, I&#39;ll be direct about the history<br/>&gt; that Shlomi asked me for ownership a few years ago and I refused because he&#39;s<br/>&gt; even more self-promoting than Randal and I didn&#39;t want a Perl History<br/>&gt; according to a megalomaniacal dude who filled the timeline with his own<br/>&gt; milestones (Don&#39;t waste your time Shlomi). <br/><br/>I admit I may be self-promoting and ego-maniacal and self-centred and lots of<br/>other stuff. However, I also care about the Perl community (and the global open<br/>source community in general, since I&#39;m trying not to be a tribalist), and also<br/>agree that my own interests and those of the community at large align more<br/>often than not. For example, http://perl-begin.org/ was primarily my endeavour,<br/>which I have promoted and boasted of, but many people also found it a useful<br/>resource, and it proved of utility.<br/><br/>The secret to deal with problematic people is not to go on a feud with them,<br/>and decide you want nothing to do with them, but rather to acknowledge<br/>whatever faults they have, and try to deal with them, despite that and make<br/>the best of the situation. See: http://shlomifish.livejournal.com/1747.html<br/>(= &ldquo;the Stoic road to peace of mind&rdquo;). I think many parents to children will<br/>testify that their children can be disobedient, or mischievious, or not do<br/>their homework or their chores on time, or whatever, but they still love them<br/>despite all that, and try to educate them in whatever way is possible.<br/>Perfection is in imperfection.<br/><br/><br/>&gt; I&#39;m aware that it has gone<br/>&gt; unmantained, but it&#39;s my project and I&#39;d like to hand it off to someone who<br/>&gt; isn&#39;t going to use it as a way to jerk themselves off and those sorts with<br/>&gt; spare time are hard to find. Even without updates, I&#39;m glad I did the<br/>&gt; timeline since even though the critics bitch that it hasn&#39;t been maintained,<br/>&gt; they didn&#39;t write it and don&#39;t have the stories I do. :) even so. The episode<br/>&gt; left me feeling again that no good deed goes unpunished which best describes<br/>&gt; perl. My own other half has bitter memories of being pumpkin which is an<br/>&gt; unfortunate, yet meaningful, tidbit. When even your most devoted think<br/>&gt; they&#39;ve not spent their time as well as they&#39;d have hoped.....<br/><br/>Seems like you are trying to protect the family&#39;s Jewels. I have the opposite<br/>view, in which I&#39;d rather people build upon my work and take it in all<br/>directions, because people are more willing to read or contribute to something<br/>that is under CC-by, CC-by-sa, etc. or other permissive or copyleft licences,<br/>than to contribute to something that is under a much stricter licence, while<br/>people who are nefarious (e.g: spammers) won&#39;t care even if it&#39;s<br/>All-Rights-Reserved and proprietary.<br/><br/>You may wish to read about the noble and highly moral teaching and deeds of<br/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin (though the English Wikipedia article has<br/>become too detailed) for how to turn your enemies into friends, treat<br/>competitors with respect and avoid silly feuds and &laquo;an-eye-for-an-eye&raquo; and &laquo;may<br/>my soul die with philistines&raquo; bitterness. It is applicable for the software and<br/>digital media worlds today, as much as it applied to warfare back then.<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>Apple Inc. is Evil - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/anti/apple/<br/><br/>When Chuck Norris uses git, he takes a coffee break after initiating every git<br/>commit. And then he waits for the commit to finish.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2671.html Sat, 09 Feb 2013 08:19:45 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Elaine Ashton On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:56 PM, Jacinta Richardson &lt;jarich@perltraining.com.au&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; There&#39;s another key difference that should be recognised, and the situation isn&#39;t that there is a dire shortage of women who know Perl (25-30% of Perl programmers out in business), there&#39;s a dire shortage of women involved in the Perl community. (between 2 and 6%) The tenacious women are learning Perl, they&#39;re just doing so for work. Not for fun. <br/><br/>I&#39;d say that the percentage is higher as women are very well represented in system administration where perl remains a very common tool, but as plumbers we aren&#39;t thought of until something breaks. I&#39;m one of those crabby sorts and I was pleasantly surprised by the perl folks at the first perl conference since I had spent years lurking as a male persona on irc and usenet. I&#39;ll admit the linguistic nerdery drew me in, but the whisky snobbery certainly sealed the deal. I think the appeal of the perl community is the wide variety of interests and the curiosity for more. The fun of the perl community isn&#39;t with perl but with everything else.<br/><br/>I will also say that I gave up on many things not because it wasn&#39;t fun but because there are those who don&#39;t have basic social graces and who make the thought of going to the dentist vs doing something for the perl community a no-contest idea...at least the dentist offers painkillers and a smile. <br/><br/>Since I&#39;m on about telling the truth and trying to guilt the silent into believing that silence is not a helpful act, I&#39;ll be direct about the history that Shlomi asked me for ownership a few years ago and I refused because he&#39;s even more self-promoting than Randal and I didn&#39;t want a Perl History according to a megalomaniacal dude who filled the timeline with his own milestones (Don&#39;t waste your time Shlomi). I&#39;m aware that it has gone unmantained, but it&#39;s my project and I&#39;d like to hand it off to someone who isn&#39;t going to use it as a way to jerk themselves off and those sorts with spare time are hard to find. Even without updates, I&#39;m glad I did the timeline since even though the critics bitch that it hasn&#39;t been maintained, they didn&#39;t write it and don&#39;t have the stories I do. :) even so. The episode left me feeling again that no good deed goes unpunished which best describes perl. My own other half has bitter memories of being pumpkin which is an unfortunate, yet meaningful, tidbit. When even your most devoted think they&#39;ve not spent their time as well as they&#39;d have hoped.....<br/><br/> e.<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2670.html Sat, 09 Feb 2013 03:03:53 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Jacinta Richardson On 07/02/13 13:49, Shlomi Fish wrote:<br/>&gt; Before I answer your question, let me add that I think we should train<br/>&gt; potential female (and male) contributors to not give up so easily after running<br/>&gt; into a potential difficulty.<br/><br/>I have no idea how you &quot;train&quot; potential contributors to not give up but <br/>you don&#39;t do it by being an arse. Studies show that boys are encouraged <br/>to keep trying, and girls are often told &quot;oh, let me do it for you&quot; from <br/>very, very young ages. That seems like training potential female <br/>contributors to give up and after a lifetime of that kind of training I <br/>don&#39;t see it as very surprising that some women are likely to stumble <br/>and give up rather than be tenacious. Sad, but not surprising.<br/><br/>However, having said that, we&#39;re not held to what we learned as <br/>children. There are many professions which require tenacity, such as <br/>athletics, law, business management...; and so women can and do learn <br/>such skills. It&#39;s just worth understanding that some women are coming <br/>into learning such skills at a disadvantage to those men who were lucky <br/>enough to be taught them for the majority of their lives.<br/><br/>There&#39;s another key difference that should be recognised, and the <br/>situation isn&#39;t that there is a dire shortage of women who know Perl <br/>(25-30% of Perl programmers out in business), there&#39;s a dire shortage of <br/>women involved in the Perl community. (between 2 and 6%) The tenacious <br/>women are learning Perl, they&#39;re just doing so for work. *Not for fun. *<br/><br/>I suspect that when there are people who are approaching the Perl <br/>community in an attempt to try to learn to program, or who already know <br/>how to program and want to learn Perl, we have to *compete with other <br/>**fun**pursuits.* When the few bad apples in the community are allowed <br/>to behave badly towards them, that&#39;s not fun. *If learning Perl isn&#39;t <br/>**fun**, they won&#39;t stay.* Why would they? There are other, more fun <br/>things to do than be insulted, treated badly, harassed or otherwise in <br/>pursuit of something you thought could be cool. This is a problem for <br/>Perl and, in my opinion, for programming in general - *programming is <br/>not competing as well against **other fun pursuits*.<br/><br/>It&#39;s also worth noting that when people flame others on mailing lists, <br/>or abuse others in IRC channels, active contributors also go away. You <br/>can lose up to 25% of your project just from one long flame-war. *People <br/>are in open source for fun*. Take the fun away, make it worse than <br/>work, and lots of them won&#39;t stay. It&#39;s easy to find entertainment on <br/>line these days that doesn&#39;t involve dealing with people who are being <br/>arses.<br/><br/>Telling people that they have to have a thick skin, in order to have <br/>fun, will not work into the future. Knowing Perl or being a developer <br/>in a lot of open source is no longer enough of a hallowed destination <br/>that it&#39;s sufficient reward for weathering the abuse between newbie and <br/>achievement. Perl (and a lot of open source) needs new developers more <br/>than it needs developers with thick skins. *Getting a thick skin isn&#39;t <br/>fun.* It doesn&#39;t matter what you had to go through.<br/><br/>&gt; It&#39;s inevitable to face hardship and abuse, because even I, as a guy, faced<br/>&gt; them, and still do, and have to know how to overcome them.<br/><br/>Yes, men face abuse too. The abuse men face is rarely gendered. Women <br/>may face worse abuse if their gender is known than you likely have any <br/>idea about. Regardless, strangely enough, *abuse is not fun* regardless <br/>of your gender. Some people will stick through it, but I can&#39;t blame <br/>the people who don&#39;t.<br/><br/>&gt; I think trying to restructure a so-called-hostile community is like making the<br/>&gt; mountain come to Muhammad. On the other hand, a single motivated person with<br/>&gt; some amount of creative thinking, and who is not willing to give up can make a<br/>&gt; world of a difference.<br/><br/>*Hostile communities are not fun* for people who don&#39;t want to show off <br/>how much of an arse they can be. If we want people to come to learn <br/>Perl and participate in the Perl community, because *Perl is fun* (and <br/>as a language I really believe it is) then we need to make sure <br/>that*participating in the Perl community is fun*. Or at least we need to <br/>make sure that participating doesn&#39;t suck.<br/><br/>Yes, individual motivated people can change things, they do all the <br/>time. People who stand against hostile behaviour and work to welcome <br/>and encourage all potential contributors are changing things. People <br/>who encourage involvement and shared decision making are changing <br/>things. People who make sure that their actions are*increasing the <br/>level of fun* rather than sucking it out, are changing things.<br/><br/>&gt; On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:54:29 +1100<br/>&gt; Jacinta Richardson &lt;jarich@perltraining.com.au&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt;&gt; Feminists (and there are both male and female feminists) are not at<br/>&gt;&gt; fault for pointing out that lots of entrenched behaviour is not okay.<br/>&gt;&gt; It just isn&#39;t. Things like using soft porn in slides should be<br/>&gt;&gt; obviously not okay. But things like asking a woman who&#39;s turned up to<br/>&gt;&gt; your tech group if she&#39;s there because her boyfriend is, or who her<br/>&gt;&gt; boyfriend is, or even if she has a boyfriend, is also not okay.<br/>&gt; Why not? While you shouldn&#39;t ask a woman if she has a boyfriend right at the<br/>&gt; beginning of the conversation, it&#39;s not such a bad question to ask later on.<br/><br/>Really?<br/><br/>Do you have any idea how creepy it is to turn up to a gathering for the <br/>first time, as a woman, and have numerous guys try to work into the <br/>conversation a question on what your relationship status is? Can&#39;t you <br/>just assume that women are there for technical reasons and not to be hit <br/>on endlessly, because that&#39;s what asking a woman about her relationship <br/>status is, it&#39;s a precursor to hitting on her, not just polite <br/>conversation. Having that conversation every time I attend new <br/>technology gatherings (where I&#39;m not previously known) is tedious and - <br/>guess what?! *It&#39;s not fun*.<br/><br/>After she&#39;s been going a few times, and you&#39;ve established a rapport - <br/>if you do, *maybe* you could ask her then, although if she wants you to <br/>know she&#39;ll probably have said.<br/><br/>Safer questions:<br/><br/>* How are you?<br/>* What got you interested into &lt;technical topic&gt;?<br/>* Is this your first time here?<br/>* Do you work with &lt;technical topic&gt;?<br/>* What do you do?<br/>* Have you been to any &lt;similar technical groups&gt;?<br/>* Have you heard about &lt;upcoming conference&gt;?<br/>* Would you be interested in giving a talk yourself at &lt;technical group&gt;?<br/><br/>see, all of these are the same kinds of questions that you could ask a <br/>new man visiting. It&#39;s not that hard; if you wouldn&#39;t find it of dire <br/>important to know the sexuality and relationship status of a new person <br/>because they&#39;re a man, then forgo trying to find that out from a new <br/>person just because they&#39;re a woman.<br/><br/>*Have fun!*<br/><br/> Jacinta<br/><br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2669.html Fri, 08 Feb 2013 03:56:55 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by eashton <br/>On Feb 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, Jacinta Richardson &lt;jarich@perltraining.com.au&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; I don&#39;t think that Perl&#39;s decline in popularity is all that related to why Perl has too few women in its communities. Over time, my training classes have probably averaged 25-30% women (which is on-par with women&#39;s representation in IT in business). Skud&#39;s survey (years ago) suggested 6% women (which is 3 times higher than women&#39;s representation in open source for pleasure, although the survey may have been answered by people who only worked in open source for work). I think Perl has too few women in its communities for almost all the same reasons that too few women are involved in open source for pleasure, and they&#39;re well documented elsewhere. That is, this isn&#39;t a Perl problem, but a wider problem. All we can do is promote (haha) the strengths of our community and treat our newcomers well.<br/><br/>I knew that anecdote would take this in the wrong direction, but I couldn&#39;t resist as it was a truly amusing moment and, at the same time, a revelation of human nature. You&#39;re right, it&#39;s not just a Perl problem, but we wouldn&#39;t be here 10+ years later talking about the same problems with the same people if the issue was solely a technical one. <br/><br/>I think numbers, percentages, or the generally nice boys in the close community that we are familiar with (I did marry one...) may be misleading not only because there&#39;s plenty of words spent on the subject, probably more from men than women, but if we are leaving our own wishful thinking behind, a world where sexism is no longer an issue, a company like GoDaddy would be out of business overnight (for those outside of the US, see YouTube for GoDaddy commercials...QED). Words and documented lists of reasons why don&#39;t appear to be very effective. It&#39;s an issue, but that it&#39;s still an issue that gets the soft bokeh of a lovely leica 50mm lens in low light means there&#39;s a lot of other things that don&#39;t see the crisp light of midday. I spent a year in Switzerland which was like stepping into a German version of &quot;Mad Men&quot; set in the modern world without mid-century modern hipness, but with all the sexism still intact and overtly enforced. It was an interesting experience in how everything can look so similar as long as you don&#39;t challenge the status quo...and don&#39;t flush your toilet after 10pm or before 6am. :)<br/><br/>So, to bring it back to what I was originally getting at...questions and words are only useful if the answers are more than just the lies we tell ourselves and others because it&#39;s what we and others want to hear. In the words of Dr. House, &quot;Everybody lies.&quot; <br/><br/>e. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2668.html Thu, 07 Feb 2013 02:58:31 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Shlomi Fish Hi Jacinta,<br/><br/>we may be straying off-topic here.<br/><br/>Before I answer your question, let me add that I think we should train<br/>potential female (and male) contributors to not give up so easily after running<br/>into a potential difficulty. In<br/>http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/human-hacking/ , Jennifer is suffering a lot<br/>of verbal abuse from Erisa at first (who is a girl no less), but doesn&#39;t give<br/>up and eventually is able to become a competent FOSS developer. Larry Lessig<br/>also talked about why he keeps on blogging here despite being really offended<br/>from bad comments here:<br/><br/>http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/How_to_start_contributing_to_or_using_Open_Source_Software#Some_Mental_Preparation<br/><br/>It&#39;s inevitable to face hardship and abuse, because even I, as a guy, faced<br/>them, and still do, and have to know how to overcome them. On the other hand, a<br/>female Dutch open-source developer (in her 50s or so - mother to several<br/>20-years old, etc.) told me that she would give up much more easily on<br/>some of my non-sexist related problems I ran into and never try to contribute<br/>to that community again.<br/><br/>I think trying to restructure a so-called-hostile community is like making the<br/>mountain come to Muhammad. On the other hand, a single motivated person with<br/>some amount of creative thinking, and who is not willing to give up can make a<br/>world of a difference. Samantha Smith<br/>( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantha_Smith ) changed the fate of the cold<br/>war (for the better), by simply writing a letter (and she was a 10-years old<br/>child). It&#39;s now even easier to do that using the Internet. <br/><br/>now on to what you said:<br/><br/>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:54:29 +1100<br/>Jacinta Richardson &lt;jarich@perltraining.com.au&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; On 06/02/13 14:55, Shlomi Fish wrote:<br/>&gt; &gt; I hope I won&#39;t get attacked for it too much (and I am an active <br/>&gt; &gt; contributor to advocacy@perl.org), but I think part of the problem is <br/>&gt; &gt; that Feminists (and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi -s - a term <br/>&gt; &gt; which no longer mean the same thing) are *never* happy from whatever <br/>&gt; &gt; behaviour the good-intentioned male hackers exhibit towards female <br/>&gt; &gt; developers who wish to start,<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; I realise this is derailing the thread further, but I&#39;m going to object <br/>&gt; to this. Shlomi, there are *many*, *many* men in the Perl community who <br/>&gt; manage to get along with the women in the Perl community without any <br/>&gt; gender-related problems at all.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; For starters, they don&#39;t insist on using &quot;guruess&quot; or &quot;hackeress&quot; after <br/>&gt; being told that &quot;guru&quot; and &quot;hacker&quot; were not originally gendered and <br/>&gt; don&#39;t need to be so (and I&#39;m delighted to see that you&#39;ve improved in <br/>&gt; this area). <br/><br/>Thanks! Anyway, some people may be tempted to use these terms because they are<br/>speakers of foreign languages which have gendered nouns, adjectives, etc. and<br/>it influences their thoughts, even in English. So you shouldn&#39;t jump the gun at<br/>them and accuse them of being sexist, because then you&#39;re adding oil to the<br/>fire.<br/><br/>&gt; They&#39;re also the ones who wouldn&#39;t even bring up the word <br/>&gt; feminazi if trying to make your point, when it has never meant the same <br/>&gt; thing and is and always has been a deliberate slur against feminism. <br/>&gt; They&#39;re also the ones who don&#39;t jump to point the finger at feminists <br/>&gt; for what is clearly a society-wide problem.<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>&ldquo;Society-wide problems&rdquo; can be changed by courageous individuals who instead<br/>of blaming their problems on the world at large, take simple yet clever<br/>actions (like those who play role-playing games know to take), and know better<br/>than to give up. <br/><br/>&gt; Feminists (and there are both male and female feminists) are not at <br/>&gt; fault for pointing out that lots of entrenched behaviour is not okay. <br/>&gt; It just isn&#39;t. Things like using soft porn in slides should be <br/>&gt; obviously not okay. But things like asking a woman who&#39;s turned up to <br/>&gt; your tech group if she&#39;s there because her boyfriend is, or who her <br/>&gt; boyfriend is, or even if she has a boyfriend, is also not okay. <br/><br/>Why not? While you shouldn&#39;t ask a woman if she has a boyfriend right at the<br/>beginning of the conversation, it&#39;s not such a bad question to ask later on.<br/>But after reading the &quot;HOWTO encourage women in open source&quot;, I felt a lot of<br/>guilt from actually thinking about talking with the women who attended it, and<br/>now I realise it was baseless.<br/><br/>&gt; If <br/>&gt; someone is correcting you on what you view to be relatively mild <br/>&gt; transgressions perhaps it means that mostly you&#39;re doing okay. Or, <br/>&gt; occasionally, perhaps it means you didn&#39;t understand that your <br/>&gt; transgression isn&#39;t that mild.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; As a feminist, I can say with pride that (although not perfect) the Perl <br/>&gt; community at large is my favourite group of tech people to hang out with <br/>&gt; largely because it&#39;s the least sexist. Sure, I got asked what the <br/>&gt; partners&#39; program was like, less than an hour after my talk at YAPC::EU <br/>&gt; and sure, I get challenged to prove my Perl credibility by people who <br/>&gt; don&#39;t know who I am at YAPC::NA (a few times) but mostly this is a <br/>&gt; really good crowd.<br/><br/>I&#39;m glad. :-). I also think that the Mageia Linux community, however small, has<br/>been woman friendly, and there are several prominent women active there on<br/>mailing lists, web forums, IRC, etc.<br/><br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; So I don&#39;t agree at all that &quot;part of the problem is that Feminists ... <br/>&gt; are *never* happy from whatever behaviour the good-intentioned male <br/>&gt; hackers exhibit towards female developers who wish to start,&quot; The Perl <br/>&gt; community has many men who behave wonderfully towards women who wish to <br/>&gt; start in Perl, and I (and I&#39;m sure a lot of feminists) are delighted <br/>&gt; with that. What do I mean about behaving &quot;wonderfully&quot;? I mean <br/>&gt; treating them as you should treat any other starting developer: assume <br/>&gt; competence, determine background, point out appropriate resources and <br/>&gt; provide help when it is requested, and only that help, versus &quot;here let <br/>&gt; me finish it for you&quot;.<br/><br/>My tangent about Feminists not being happy, was not related to the Perl<br/>community, just said as a stream-of-consciousness thing. Thing is many women<br/>will misinterpret men trying to help from whatever reason, as harmful, and<br/>criticise it or attack it, just like Terry Pratchett described<br/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rincewind as <br/><br/>&lt;&lt;&lt;<br/>Rincewind is one of those people who gets in the way of his own happiness.<br/>If it was raining kisses he&#39;d be the only person with an umbrella.<br/>(CIX Pratchett Conference)<br/>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br/><br/>You should seize opportunities when you run into them instead of getting into<br/>useless paranoia about the motivation of the other party.<br/><br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; I don&#39;t think that Perl&#39;s decline in popularity is all that related to <br/>&gt; why Perl has too few women in its communities. <br/><br/>Neither do I.<br/><br/>&gt; Over time, my training <br/>&gt; classes have probably averaged 25-30% women (which is on-par with <br/>&gt; women&#39;s representation in IT in business). Skud&#39;s survey (years ago) <br/>&gt; suggested 6% women (which is 3 times higher than women&#39;s representation <br/>&gt; in open source for pleasure, although the survey may have been answered <br/>&gt; by people who only worked in open source for work). I think Perl has <br/>&gt; too few women in its communities for almost all the same reasons that <br/>&gt; too few women are involved in open source for pleasure, and they&#39;re well <br/>&gt; documented elsewhere. That is, this isn&#39;t a Perl problem, but a wider <br/>&gt; problem. All we can do is promote (haha) the strengths of our community <br/>&gt; and treat our newcomers well.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; All the best,<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Jacinta<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>Stop Using MSIE - http://www.shlomifish.org/no-ie/<br/><br/>Chuck Norris is the ghost author of the entire Debian GNU/Linux distribution.<br/>And he wrote it in 24 hours, while taking snack breaks.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2667.html Thu, 07 Feb 2013 02:49:55 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Jacinta Richardson On 06/02/13 14:55, Shlomi Fish wrote:<br/>&gt; I hope I won&#39;t get attacked for it too much (and I am an active <br/>&gt; contributor to advocacy@perl.org), but I think part of the problem is <br/>&gt; that Feminists (and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi -s - a term <br/>&gt; which no longer mean the same thing) are *never* happy from whatever <br/>&gt; behaviour the good-intentioned male hackers exhibit towards female <br/>&gt; developers who wish to start,<br/><br/>I realise this is derailing the thread further, but I&#39;m going to object <br/>to this. Shlomi, there are *many*, *many* men in the Perl community who <br/>manage to get along with the women in the Perl community without any <br/>gender-related problems at all.<br/><br/>For starters, they don&#39;t insist on using &quot;guruess&quot; or &quot;hackeress&quot; after <br/>being told that &quot;guru&quot; and &quot;hacker&quot; were not originally gendered and <br/>don&#39;t need to be so (and I&#39;m delighted to see that you&#39;ve improved in <br/>this area). They&#39;re also the ones who wouldn&#39;t even bring up the word <br/>feminazi if trying to make your point, when it has never meant the same <br/>thing and is and always has been a deliberate slur against feminism. <br/>They&#39;re also the ones who don&#39;t jump to point the finger at feminists <br/>for what is clearly a society-wide problem.<br/><br/>Feminists (and there are both male and female feminists) are not at <br/>fault for pointing out that lots of entrenched behaviour is not okay. <br/>It just isn&#39;t. Things like using soft porn in slides should be <br/>obviously not okay. But things like asking a woman who&#39;s turned up to <br/>your tech group if she&#39;s there because her boyfriend is, or who her <br/>boyfriend is, or even if she has a boyfriend, is also not okay. If <br/>someone is correcting you on what you view to be relatively mild <br/>transgressions perhaps it means that mostly you&#39;re doing okay. Or, <br/>occasionally, perhaps it means you didn&#39;t understand that your <br/>transgression isn&#39;t that mild.<br/><br/>As a feminist, I can say with pride that (although not perfect) the Perl <br/>community at large is my favourite group of tech people to hang out with <br/>largely because it&#39;s the least sexist. Sure, I got asked what the <br/>partners&#39; program was like, less than an hour after my talk at YAPC::EU <br/>and sure, I get challenged to prove my Perl credibility by people who <br/>don&#39;t know who I am at YAPC::NA (a few times) but mostly this is a <br/>really good crowd.<br/><br/>So I don&#39;t agree at all that &quot;part of the problem is that Feminists ... <br/>are *never* happy from whatever behaviour the good-intentioned male <br/>hackers exhibit towards female developers who wish to start,&quot; The Perl <br/>community has many men who behave wonderfully towards women who wish to <br/>start in Perl, and I (and I&#39;m sure a lot of feminists) are delighted <br/>with that. What do I mean about behaving &quot;wonderfully&quot;? I mean <br/>treating them as you should treat any other starting developer: assume <br/>competence, determine background, point out appropriate resources and <br/>provide help when it is requested, and only that help, versus &quot;here let <br/>me finish it for you&quot;.<br/><br/>I don&#39;t think that Perl&#39;s decline in popularity is all that related to <br/>why Perl has too few women in its communities. Over time, my training <br/>classes have probably averaged 25-30% women (which is on-par with <br/>women&#39;s representation in IT in business). Skud&#39;s survey (years ago) <br/>suggested 6% women (which is 3 times higher than women&#39;s representation <br/>in open source for pleasure, although the survey may have been answered <br/>by people who only worked in open source for work). I think Perl has <br/>too few women in its communities for almost all the same reasons that <br/>too few women are involved in open source for pleasure, and they&#39;re well <br/>documented elsewhere. That is, this isn&#39;t a Perl problem, but a wider <br/>problem. All we can do is promote (haha) the strengths of our community <br/>and treat our newcomers well.<br/><br/>All the best,<br/><br/> Jacinta<br/><br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2666.html Thu, 07 Feb 2013 00:54:42 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by eashton <br/>On Feb 5, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Shlomi Fish &lt;shlomif@shlomifish.org&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; So I think it is better to encourage post-Feminist / post-Buffy /<br/>&gt; post-Friends / etc. female hackers&rsquo; heroines. Trying to tout my own horn, here<br/>&gt; is some ( hopefully ) entertaining and amusing post-Buffy / post-Feminist online<br/>&gt; literature I&#39;ve written:<br/><br/><br/>So self-promoting some sort of cringeworthy fantasy fem-hero fiction is somehow illuminating? You missed the point...<br/><br/>What we want to believe and what is real are often two different things, just as the toddlers clung to what they believed was the right answer versus <br/>the actual right answer. These are the lies we tell ourselves much like the term &#39;meritocracy&#39; is so highly touted, so firmly held as a virtue of open source and, yet, if closely examined isn&#39;t really quite true if we&#39;re being completely honest with ourselves. When Larry gave the YAPC keynote in STL in 2002 which was on the theme of more women in perl using Tolkien&#39;s pantheon of heroic women I cringed, not because I don&#39;t enjoy the genre, but because if anyone needs fewer fictional ideas about women it would be those in the audience nodding their heads. <br/><br/>In order for change to occur, you&#39;re going to have to challenge what you believe to be are unassailable truths.<br/><br/>e. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2665.html Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:51:27 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Shlomi Fish Hi e,<br/><br/>On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:30:03 -0500<br/>eashton@mac.com wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; On Feb 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Nicholas Clark &lt;nick@ccl4.org&gt; wrote: <br/>&gt; &gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; Yes. Surprisingly familiar set of names, most I recognise from at least 10<br/>&gt; &gt; years ago.<br/>&gt; &gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; Why aren&#39;t there new names?<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Likely the same reason(s) as 10 or more years ago. :)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; (The breeding programme will take time to deliver results. Something needs<br/>&gt; &gt; to change in the meantime)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Well, there have been a lot of words wasted on &quot;Why aren&#39;t there more women<br/>&gt; in $x?&quot; for just as many years with just as little change and I do think the<br/>&gt; correlation is meaningful if not causation. The breeding programme does<br/>&gt; appear to be producing quite a few females so you&#39;d think there&#39;d be more<br/>&gt; earnest investigation instead of believing the world will be miraculously<br/>&gt; changed in a few years, but I&#39;m not optimistic such will be the case.<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>I hope I won&#39;t get attacked for it too much (and I am an active contributor to<br/>advocacy@perl.org), but I think part of the problem is that Feminists (and<br/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi -s<br/>- a term which no longer mean the same thing) are *never* happy from whatever<br/>behaviour the good-intentioned male hackers exhibit towards female<br/>developers who wish to start, which causes them to do nothings towards them (as<br/>a worst of all possible solutions - see<br/>http://motivator-and-inspirator.blogspot.co.il/2010/07/grandfather-grandson-and-donkeys.html<br/>), and make the ground fertile for constant abuse by the sexist<br/>&ldquo;naked pics, plz&rdquo; people.<br/><br/>So I think it is better to encourage post-Feminist / post-Buffy /<br/>post-Friends / etc. female hackers&rsquo; heroines. Trying to tout my own horn, here<br/>is some ( hopefully ) entertaining and amusing post-Buffy / post-Feminist online<br/>literature I&#39;ve written:<br/><br/>* http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/human-hacking/ - the Human Hacking Field<br/>Guide - &ldquo;An unlikely female computer hacker (= software enthusiast, not a<br/>computer intruder)-wannabe is getting taught by an even more unlikely female<br/>computer hacker. It takes place in Los Angeles, California and is written in<br/>English. &rdquo;<br/><br/>* http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/Star-Trek/We-the-Living-Dead/ - a<br/>Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode with some loose ends, which is featuring<br/>Katie Jacobson, a typical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Y female<br/>software hacker (originally from Berkeley, California, a Technion graduate and<br/>then working as a system administrator on a private merceneries star ship)<br/>who is excited (or sometimes agitated) to experience the various farfetched<br/>wonders my imaginary world crossing of Star Trek TNG/DS9, Buffy, Judaism,<br/>Objectivism and Neo-Objectivism, geek culture and many other lesser influences.<br/>Furthermore, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadzia_Dax and<br/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kira_Nerys also play important rules there as<br/>does Deborah the Prophet.<br/><br/>* https://github.com/shlomif/Selina-Mandrake ;<br/>http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/Selina-Mandrake/ - &ldquo;Selina Mandrake - The<br/>Slayer&rdquo; - Selina is an unusual vampire slayer, who while being an<br/>Anglo-American student, with aspirations of becoming a Near East<br/>Archaelogist, testifies that: &ldquo;I&rsquo;m not into martial arts, and I&rsquo;m really<br/>clumsy. As much as I like playing Basketball (and I do), I royally suck at it&hellip;<br/>&rdquo;.<br/><br/>Despite all that, using the fact that she knows enough about the Near East,<br/>Judaism/Semitic culture, and popular culture, she is able of slaying all the<br/>demons she encounter, but while finding the entire process extremely emotional.<br/><br/>-----------------<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish <br/><br/>&gt; An anecdote I&#39;m fond of sharing since it still makes me laugh is when I<br/>&gt; noticed a group of 4yo pre-schoolers playing with a European layer puzzle of<br/>&gt; the human body (EU for anatomical realism) I asked them, &quot;What is the largest<br/>&gt; organ in the human body?&quot; Without exception, the girls pointed to their head<br/>&gt; or their hearts and the boys, well, the boys all pointed to the most<br/>&gt; cherished of male body parts. I managed to not make ribald comments leading<br/>&gt; to nightmares or corruption of such innocent souls and soldiered on informing<br/>&gt; them that, no, the skin is the largest of the organs in the human body. Again<br/>&gt; I asked the question and the girls, without exception, all pointed to their<br/>&gt; skin and, the boys all pointed to their cherished member. Some things don&#39;t<br/>&gt; change. :)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; If you want change, you have to do more than ask why and have a panel of<br/>&gt; talking heads at a conference...or announce a new version of the language in<br/>&gt; hopes that change can be driven merely by external novelty.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; e.<br/><br/><br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>The Case for File Swapping - http://shlom.in/file-swap<br/><br/>The X in XSLT stands for eXtermination.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2664.html Wed, 06 Feb 2013 03:55:44 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by David H. Adler On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 02:30:03PM -0500, eashton@mac.com wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; On Feb 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Nicholas Clark &lt;nick@ccl4.org&gt; wrote: <br/>&gt; &gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; Yes. Surprisingly familiar set of names, most I recognise from at least 10<br/>&gt; &gt; years ago.<br/>&gt; &gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; Why aren&#39;t there new names?<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Likely the same reason(s) as 10 or more years ago. :)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; (The breeding programme will take time to deliver results. Something needs<br/>&gt; &gt; to change in the meantime)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Well, there have been a lot of words wasted on &quot;Why aren&#39;t there more<br/>&gt; women in $x?&quot; for just as many years with just as little change and I<br/>&gt; do think the correlation is meaningful if not causation. The breeding<br/>&gt; programme does appear to be producing quite a few females so you&#39;d<br/>&gt; think there&#39;d be more earnest investigation instead of believing the<br/>&gt; world will be miraculously changed in a few years, but I&#39;m not<br/>&gt; optimistic such will be the case.<br/><br/>I was going to make some kind of actually relevant contribution, but as<br/>I am ill, it would probably come out all wrong. I&#39;ll try to remember to<br/>say something later if this doesn&#39;t kill me.<br/><br/>dha<br/><br/>-- <br/>David H. Adler - &lt;dha@panix.com&gt; - http://www.panix.com/~dha/<br/>Perl gives you enough rope to hang yourself and your neighbor.<br/> - Randal L. Schwartz<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2663.html Tue, 05 Feb 2013 23:59:01 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by eashton <br/>On Feb 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Nicholas Clark &lt;nick@ccl4.org&gt; wrote: <br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Yes. Surprisingly familiar set of names, most I recognise from at least 10<br/>&gt; years ago.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Why aren&#39;t there new names?<br/><br/>Likely the same reason(s) as 10 or more years ago. :)<br/><br/>&gt; (The breeding programme will take time to deliver results. Something needs<br/>&gt; to change in the meantime)<br/><br/>Well, there have been a lot of words wasted on &quot;Why aren&#39;t there more women in $x?&quot; for just as many years with just as little change and I do think the correlation is meaningful if not causation. The breeding programme does appear to be producing quite a few females so you&#39;d think there&#39;d be more earnest investigation instead of believing the world will be miraculously changed in a few years, but I&#39;m not optimistic such will be the case.<br/><br/>An anecdote I&#39;m fond of sharing since it still makes me laugh is when I noticed a group of 4yo pre-schoolers playing with a European layer puzzle of the human body (EU for anatomical realism) I asked them, &quot;What is the largest organ in the human body?&quot; Without exception, the girls pointed to their head or their hearts and the boys, well, the boys all pointed to the most cherished of male body parts. I managed to not make ribald comments leading to nightmares or corruption of such innocent souls and soldiered on informing them that, no, the skin is the largest of the organs in the human body. Again I asked the question and the girls, without exception, all pointed to their skin and, the boys all pointed to their cherished member. Some things don&#39;t change. :)<br/><br/>If you want change, you have to do more than ask why and have a panel of talking heads at a conference...or announce a new version of the language in hopes that change can be driven merely by external novelty.<br/><br/>e.<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2662.html Tue, 05 Feb 2013 19:30:19 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Nicholas Clark On Sun, Feb 03, 2013 at 10:35:38AM -0500, eashton@mac.com wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; On Feb 2, 2013, at 11:12 PM, Peter Scott &lt;Peter@PSDT.com&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; &gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; This is, basically, Jon Orwant&#39;s prophecy coming home to roost: &quot;People <br/>&gt; &gt; are going to move on and do something else.&quot; If Perl 6 was ready for <br/>&gt; &gt; prime time, it would be a different story.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Jon and I had the same thought, but he for the more technical aspect and I for the more social aspect. That P6 isn&#39;t ready yet, even after so many years, isn&#39;t really wholly to blame for the lack of vigor in numbers of users. That we are the same people having the same conversation 15 years on might have more to do with it than anything. <br/><br/>Yes. Surprisingly familiar set of names, most I recognise from at least 10<br/>years ago.<br/><br/>Why aren&#39;t there new names?<br/><br/>(The breeding programme will take time to deliver results. Something needs<br/>to change in the meantime)<br/><br/>Nicholas Clark<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2661.html Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:47:55 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Nicholas Clark On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 06:39:14PM +0100, Richard Foley wrote:<br/>&gt; s/warn/warm/ # ?<br/><br/>Yes,<br/><br/>&gt; On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 05:01:21PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; &gt; More warn bodies!<br/><br/>Although really, I think that zombies have a better plan for what is needed.<br/>:-)<br/><br/>Nicholas Clark<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2660.html Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:37:46 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Shlomi Fish Hi Georgios,<br/><br/>On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 22:51:28 +0100<br/>Georgios Magklaras &lt;georgios@biotek.uio.no&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; On 31/01/13 09:10, Johan Vromans wrote:<br/>&gt; &gt; http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/01/29/0235220/perls-glory-days-are-behind-it-but-it-isnt-going-anywhere<br/>&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt; &gt; We know we suck at marketing, but is there anything we are going to do<br/>&gt; &gt; about it?<br/>&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt; &gt; -- Johan<br/>&gt; Did C ever make serious money? What was the evolution rate of C? Is C or <br/>&gt; not the basis of systems programming?<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; My point is that a good language withstands time because its useful. <br/>&gt; Perl (5) is in use and will be in use. Not because is bad/good and/or <br/>&gt; Perl 6 will come into place, but due to a fact it has a domain. And Perl <br/>&gt; has a domain not because other languages cannot do what Perl does, but <br/>&gt; due to the fact they cannot do it the WAY Perl does.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; The way a language is constructed semantically has a one to one <br/>&gt; correspondence with the way your brain works. For some people, Perl&#39;s <br/>&gt; syntax hits a sweet spot and they stick to it. For others, it is <br/>&gt; confusing, alien and can - apparently - make you a bad programmer (I <br/>&gt; have seen bad programmers in every programming language I know, so <br/>&gt; that&#39;s not a characteristic of Perl).<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; In the same way, people that parallel program, work with Intel&#39;s <br/>&gt; extensions/compilers, CUDA and/or Erlang. Try to convince an Erlang <br/>&gt; programmer that his language is obsolete. They will laugh at you and <br/>&gt; point out many examples.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Conclusion: A language is walking down the road of obsolescence when its <br/>&gt; semantic structure becomes irrelevant to the way people think and its <br/>&gt; domain dies. Neither of that is true for Perl (5) and the whole shebang <br/>&gt; has very little to do with Perl 6. Frankly, I do not see any original <br/>&gt; point in this article, IMHO.<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>Have not read the original article, but I agree. BTW, on ##programming on<br/>Freenode, people have been bitching about every language under the sun.<br/><br/>My signature quote this time is relevant, and is taken from<br/>http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/COBOL-the-New-Age-Programming-Language/ ,<br/>as a reference to Python&rsquo;s home page where they used to boast that &ldquo;NASA uses<br/>COBOL&rdquo; which while technically true, is not fully honest, because given NASA&rsquo;s<br/>history, budget, and diversity, it uses a very large number of old and new<br/>programming languages and other technologies. Also see:<br/><br/>* http://xkcd.com/519/<br/><br/>( Moreover, NASA&rsquo;s software development unit is just the tip of the iceberg. )<br/><br/>But I guess I should not give a Midrash<br/>( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash ; &ldquo;study&rdquo; - not &ldquo;mid-rash&rdquo; ) to a joke.<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan<br/><br/>NASA Uses COBOL.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2659.html Mon, 04 Feb 2013 04:11:18 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by G. Wade Johnson On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 10:04:42 +0200<br/>Shlomi Fish &lt;shlomif@shlomifish.org&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>[snip]<br/><br/>&gt; -&gt; Web 2.0 -&gt; HTML 5 anyone?). A lot of people have been criticising<br/>&gt; languages like C and C++ all the time with all sorts of criticisms,<br/>&gt; but both are popular among open-source developers, and still used in<br/>&gt; production a lot[C++] and often are the best choice. Perl has some<br/>&gt; advantages over Ruby or Python or JavaScript or CoffeeScript or<br/><br/>[snip]<br/><br/>This reminds me of one of my favorite programming language quotes:<br/><br/>&quot;There are only two kinds of programming languages: those people always<br/>bitch about and those nobody uses.&quot; --- Bjarne Stroustrup<br/><br/>G. Wade<br/>-- <br/>A language that doesn&#39;t affect the way you think about programming is<br/>not worth knowing. -- Alan Perlis<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2658.html Sun, 03 Feb 2013 23:57:57 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Georgios Magklaras On 31/01/13 09:10, Johan Vromans wrote:<br/>&gt; http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/01/29/0235220/perls-glory-days-are-behind-it-but-it-isnt-going-anywhere<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; We know we suck at marketing, but is there anything we are going to do<br/>&gt; about it?<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; -- Johan<br/>Did C ever make serious money? What was the evolution rate of C? Is C or <br/>not the basis of systems programming?<br/><br/>My point is that a good language withstands time because its useful. <br/>Perl (5) is in use and will be in use. Not because is bad/good and/or <br/>Perl 6 will come into place, but due to a fact it has a domain. And Perl <br/>has a domain not because other languages cannot do what Perl does, but <br/>due to the fact they cannot do it the WAY Perl does.<br/><br/>The way a language is constructed semantically has a one to one <br/>correspondence with the way your brain works. For some people, Perl&#39;s <br/>syntax hits a sweet spot and they stick to it. For others, it is <br/>confusing, alien and can - apparently - make you a bad programmer (I <br/>have seen bad programmers in every programming language I know, so <br/>that&#39;s not a characteristic of Perl).<br/><br/>In the same way, people that parallel program, work with Intel&#39;s <br/>extensions/compilers, CUDA and/or Erlang. Try to convince an Erlang <br/>programmer that his language is obsolete. They will laugh at you and <br/>point out many examples.<br/><br/>Conclusion: A language is walking down the road of obsolescence when its <br/>semantic structure becomes irrelevant to the way people think and its <br/>domain dies. Neither of that is true for Perl (5) and the whole shebang <br/>has very little to do with Perl 6. Frankly, I do not see any original <br/>point in this article, IMHO.<br/><br/><br/><br/>Best regards,<br/><br/>-- <br/>-- <br/>George Magklaras PhD<br/>RHCE no: 805008309135525<br/> <br/>Head of IT/Senior Systems Engineer<br/>Biotechnology Center of Oslo and<br/>the Norwegian Center for Molecular Medicine/<br/>Vitenskapelig Databehandling (VD) -<br/>Research Computing Services<br/><br/>EMBnet TMPC Chair<br/><br/>http://folk.uio.no/georgios<br/>http://hpc.uio.no<br/><br/>Tel: +47 22840535<br/><br/><br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2657.html Sun, 03 Feb 2013 21:51:39 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by eashton <br/>On Feb 2, 2013, at 11:12 PM, Peter Scott &lt;Peter@PSDT.com&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; This is, basically, Jon Orwant&#39;s prophecy coming home to roost: &quot;People <br/>&gt; are going to move on and do something else.&quot; If Perl 6 was ready for <br/>&gt; prime time, it would be a different story.<br/><br/>Jon and I had the same thought, but he for the more technical aspect and I for the more social aspect. That P6 isn&#39;t ready yet, even after so many years, isn&#39;t really wholly to blame for the lack of vigor in numbers of users. That we are the same people having the same conversation 15 years on might have more to do with it than anything. <br/><br/>e.<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2656.html Sun, 03 Feb 2013 15:35:58 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Peter Scott On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:21:24 -0600, Jeremy Fluhmann wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Peter Scott &lt;Peter@psdt.com&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt;&gt; Yesterday I was talking with a colleague about configuration management<br/>&gt;&gt; frameworks like Chef, Puppet, and Saltstack. Those are Python- and<br/>&gt;&gt; Ruby- based. He asked whether there was anything in that family based<br/>&gt;&gt; on Perl. After extensive searching, I was forced to conclude that<br/>&gt;&gt; there wasn&#39;t. <br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt;&gt;<br/>&gt; Just to throw out there something I came across a while back: (R)?ex -<br/>&gt; http://rexify.org/<br/>&gt; Written in Perl and appears to be very similar to Ansible.<br/><br/>Thank you! That appears well worth a closer look.<br/><br/>-- <br/>Peter Scott<br/>http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/<br/>http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=0137001274<br/>http://www.oreillyschool.com/certificates/perl-programming.php<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2655.html Sun, 03 Feb 2013 13:45:08 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Shlomi Fish Hi Johan,<br/><br/>On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:10:47 +0100<br/>Johan Vromans &lt;jvromans@squirrel.nl&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/01/29/0235220/perls-glory-days-are-behind-it-but-it-isnt-going-anywhere<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; We know we suck at marketing, but is there anything we are going to do<br/>&gt; about it?<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>I now have something more to add. Recently I&#39;ve done some small (but important)<br/>tweaks to http://perl-begin.org/ to make the intent of it clearer, and to avoid<br/>some what I perceived as pointless marketing-speak. People should now be able to<br/>use it to learn Perl immediately and effectively, without all the advocacy<br/>speak.<br/><br/>As I noted on #perl , I suspect that part of the reason most people still prefer<br/>jQuery ( http://jquery.com/ - the &ldquo;write less, do more&rdquo; JS library) instead of<br/>Angular JS ( http://angularjs.org/ - the &ldquo;Superheroic JavaScript MVW<br/>Framework&rdquo;) is because jQuery&rsquo;s motto tells you why you would want to use it,<br/>while Angular JS uses hyperbolic adjectives (&ldquo;Superheroic&rdquo; - bleh).<br/>As Mark Twain notes in<br/>http://palc.sd40.bc.ca/palc/Archive/writingtips/twainadjectives.htm :<br/><br/>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<br/>When you catch an adjective, kill it. No, I don&#39;t mean utterly, but kill most<br/>of them&mdash;then the rest will be valuable. They weaken when they are close<br/>together. They give strength when they are wide apart. An adjective habit, or a<br/>wordy, diffuse, flowery habit, once fastened upon a person, is as hard to get<br/>rid of as any other vice<br/>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br/><br/>I really liked the old http://www.cpan.org/ motto of &ldquo;stop reinventing wheels -<br/>start building spaceships&rdquo; because it uses a good analogy from something more<br/>tangible than software, for the philosophy behind CPAN. Many people now feel<br/>that Perl 5 and perl 5 are almost useless without the ability to use external<br/>CPAN modules, and we at #perl on Freenode have been suffering a lot of heat<br/>from people who want to use Perl without it. That put aside, I think that<br/>making some CPAN distributions and packages have less dependencies, faster to<br/>load (Moo instead of Moose, etc.), and less intimidating will be a good thing.<br/>One of the criticisms I heard about the Ruby and Ruby gems culture is that<br/>&ldquo;everything is a framework&rdquo; and that &ldquo;a simple script to move files. 100 MB of<br/>RAM&rdquo;.<br/><br/>In any case, I suggest we promote Perl simply by hacking: improving existing<br/>CPAN distributions and other applications, creating new ones that we lack (like<br/>CMSes, etc.), and not worry too much about whether or not Perl is the<br/>hippest/most-in-vogue/coolest/&quot;OMG-Ponies!!!&quot;/etc. language, because hip and<br/>fashions come and go (HTML -&gt; Dynamic HTML -&gt; Web 2.0 -&gt; HTML 5 anyone?). A lot<br/>of people have been criticising languages like C and C++ all the time with all<br/>sorts of criticisms, but both are popular among open-source developers, and<br/>still used in production a lot[C++] and often are the best choice. Perl has some<br/>advantages over Ruby or Python or JavaScript or CoffeeScript or whatever, even<br/>in the core language (to say nothing about CPAN), and I find that Ruby or<br/>Python&#39;s implicit scoping cause too many problems and are unpredictable, which<br/>is why I normally still prefer using Perl 5.<br/><br/>So stop worrying, because eventually anti-something hype or propaganda is<br/>getting old, and people use common sense and logic to criticise it, and they<br/>eventually don&#39;t buy it even if the media keeps parroting the same something.<br/>Like we say in Hebrew, &ldquo;the lie does not have legs&rdquo;. Even if the television or<br/>mainstream media is broadcasting non-stop propaganda, most of the people who<br/>matter will rather buy into stuff they see on the Internet, even if it seems<br/>completely irrelevant or even silly such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolcat<br/>or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangnam_Style or whatever. <br/><br/>Maybe I&#39;m too na&iuml;ve and optimistic (and have a positive view of life, humans,<br/>and the world), but I think that &ldquo;truth&rdquo; will eventually prevail, only that we<br/>must constantly seek better and more up-to-date &ldquo;truth&rdquo;s, because &ldquo;existence<br/>exists&rdquo; and is dynamic and there will never be a &ldquo;Theory of Everything&rdquo; or the<br/>&ldquo;Omega&rdquo; of human enlightenment. We must constantly seek it. I just hope that<br/>humanity or our planet does not perish in this course.<br/><br/>[ Sorry for the flow of consciousness towards the end. ]<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/>{{{<br/>[C++] - I personally feel that C++ gives me too much rope to hang myself, so in<br/>order to save me from myself, I prefer sticking to C, but it seems to work fine<br/>in projects such as Qt, KDE, or web browsers or whatever, where programmers are<br/>more clueful than I am, at least in this respect.<br/>}}}<br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>Perl Humour - http://perl-begin.org/humour/<br/><br/>The Spanish Inquisition does not expect Chuck Norris.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2654.html Sun, 03 Feb 2013 08:04:52 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Jeremy Fluhmann On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Peter Scott &lt;Peter@psdt.com&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:10:47 +0100, Johan Vromans wrote:<br/>&gt; &gt; http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/01/29/0235220/perls-glory-days-<br/>&gt; are-behind-it-but-it-isnt-going-anywhere<br/>&gt; &gt;<br/>&gt; &gt; We know we suck at marketing, but is there anything we are going to do<br/>&gt; &gt; about it?<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; This is, basically, Jon Orwant&#39;s prophecy coming home to roost: &quot;People<br/>&gt; are going to move on and do something else.&quot; If Perl 6 was ready for<br/>&gt; prime time, it would be a different story.<br/>&gt;<br/>&gt; Yesterday I was talking with a colleague about configuration management<br/>&gt; frameworks like Chef, Puppet, and Saltstack. Those are Python- and Ruby-<br/>&gt; based. He asked whether there was anything in that family based on<br/>&gt; Perl. After extensive searching, I was forced to conclude that there<br/>&gt; wasn&#39;t. If there had been, we would have tried to make it work. That<br/>&gt; sucked. Not trying to blame anyone, and not trying to claim I have an<br/>&gt; answer. Just generally disappointed.<br/>&gt;<br/><br/>Just to throw out there something I came across a while back:<br/>(R)?ex - http://rexify.org/<br/>Written in Perl and appears to be very similar to Ansible.<br/><br/>Jeremy<br/>-- <br/><br/>Jeremy Fluhmann<br/>*http://twitter.com/jfluhmann**<br/>http://jfluhmann.edublogs.org<br/>**http://linkedin.com/in/jfluhmann**<br/>Texas Linux Fest - http://www.texaslinuxfest.org<br/>Texas Open Source Project - http://texos.org<br/>YAPC::NA 2013 - **http://www.yapcna.org/yn2013/*&lt;http://www.yapcna.org/yn2013/&gt;<br/><br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2653.html Sun, 03 Feb 2013 05:21:33 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Peter Scott On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:10:47 +0100, Johan Vromans wrote:<br/>&gt; http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/01/29/0235220/perls-glory-days-<br/>are-behind-it-but-it-isnt-going-anywhere<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; We know we suck at marketing, but is there anything we are going to do<br/>&gt; about it?<br/><br/>This is, basically, Jon Orwant&#39;s prophecy coming home to roost: &quot;People <br/>are going to move on and do something else.&quot; If Perl 6 was ready for <br/>prime time, it would be a different story.<br/><br/>Yesterday I was talking with a colleague about configuration management <br/>frameworks like Chef, Puppet, and Saltstack. Those are Python- and Ruby-<br/>based. He asked whether there was anything in that family based on <br/>Perl. After extensive searching, I was forced to conclude that there <br/>wasn&#39;t. If there had been, we would have tried to make it work. That <br/>sucked. Not trying to blame anyone, and not trying to claim I have an <br/>answer. Just generally disappointed.<br/> <br/>-- <br/>Peter Scott<br/>http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/<br/>http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=0137001274<br/>http://www.oreillyschool.com/certificates/perl-programming.php<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2652.html Sun, 03 Feb 2013 04:12:14 +0000 Why Idea systems should be remixed [was Re: Perl's Glory Days AreBehind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere] by Shlomi Fish On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:10:47 +0100<br/>Johan Vromans &lt;jvromans@squirrel.nl&gt; wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/01/29/0235220/perls-glory-days-are-behind-it-but-it-isnt-going-anywhere<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; We know we suck at marketing, but is there anything we are going to do<br/>&gt; about it?<br/>&gt; <br/><br/>To quote Larry Wall from http://www.perl.com/pub/1997/wall/keynote.html :<br/><br/>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<br/>I have a book on my bookshelf that I&#39;ve never read, but that has a great title.<br/>It says, &quot;All Truth is God&#39;s Truth.&quot; And I believe that. The most viable belief<br/>systems are those that can reach out and incorporate new ideas, new memes, new<br/>metaphors, new interfaces, new extensions, new ways of doing things. My goal<br/>this year is to try to get Perl to reach out and cooperate with Java. I know it<br/>may be difficult for some of you to swallow, but Java is not the enemy. Nor is<br/>Lisp, or Python, or Tcl. That is not to say that these languages don&#39;t have<br/>good and bad points. I am not a cultural relativist. Nor am I a linguistic<br/>relativist. In case you hadn&#39;t noticed. :-)<br/>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br/><br/>Throughout history, various religions, cultures, human languages, works of art,<br/>and other idea systems, were mixed-and-matched cross-pollinated one another,<br/>were forked and splinterred, and brought new memes into everywhere. An idea<br/>system that did not incorporate ideas from elsewhere quickly became stagnated<br/>and inbred, and were then largely forgotten.<br/><br/>Furthermore, some idea systems &ldquo;died&rdquo;. Few people nowadays are pure Stoicists<br/>(see<br/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism ) and even the most devote Jews don&#39;t<br/>take the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentateuch_%28disambiguation%29 to its<br/>letter, and no one nowadays wants to program in Fortran I, COBOL or ALGOL<br/>(and yes, programming languages are, aside from their utility, idea systems).<br/>But the idea systems behind these languages live on.<br/><br/>The Perl idea system has proven incredibly influential on most programming<br/>languages that came after it, so it has won. Maybe most people no longer find<br/>it adequate to use Perl 5, or think that some more in vogue languages are<br/>better, but the Perl influence lives on. I&#39;m not a Perl tribalist, in the sense<br/>that if my customer prefers something else, then I use it, and try to make the<br/>best of the situation, even though I&#39;m not 100% happy, which like I note in<br/>http://shlomifish.livejournal.com/1747.html is something that Cognitive Therapy<br/>now recommends to do based on Stoicism. And I&#39;ve started to write some projects<br/>in Ruby.<br/><br/>People have been crying that Perl is dead, but it is very much alive, just as<br/>most people in the United States and in Great Britain have not heard of<br/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great or of<br/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin , but their incredible legacy still lives<br/>on, and many people carry the &ldquo;memes&rdquo; that they originate or establish in their<br/>mind and hearts.<br/><br/>So what should we do:<br/><br/>1. Continue to improve perl, Perl and CPAN. We cannot have perl 5 stagnate, and<br/>the Perl 6 implementations are still incomplete and tend to be<br/>under-performing. <br/><br/>2. Don&#39;t worry about people using Perl instead of something else that still<br/>carries its legacy, or different legacies.<br/><br/>3. Continue to import new ideas from other places.<br/><br/>4. Continue our tendency to say that &ldquo;There&#39;s more than one way to do it&rdquo;<br/>implies that some of these ways are using other programming languages, and that<br/>some languages got some things right more than Perl 5 or even Perl 6, or just<br/>differently - http://shlomif-tech.livejournal.com/57811.html .<br/><br/>5. Tell people that newer is not necessarily better.<br/><br/>6. Don&#39;t worry about battling Perl against statistical accusations of<br/>stagnations like TIOBE , GitHub statistics, Google trends, etc. , because these<br/>things are silly &ldquo;My schwartz is bigger than yours&rdquo; which the uninformed masses<br/>may fall for, but intelligent and wise people, who are the true movers and<br/>doers, don&rsquo;t.<br/><br/>7. Finally, the language called &ldquo;Perl 5&rdquo; that we will use 20 years from now will<br/>be very different than the perl-5.000, but it will be more modern, more<br/>adapted to the times and hopefully better. And I&#39;m almost sure that Perl&rsquo;s<br/>legacy will live on and Perl will be remembered, even if no one uses something<br/>called &ldquo;Perl&rdquo;.<br/><br/>-----------------------------------<br/><br/>I hope I made myself clear. Furthermore, a lot of recent trends can be dismissed<br/>as silly, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolcat -s, but lolcats<br/>have such a low barrier for entry (almost everyone can take a photo of a cat, or<br/>whatever and caption it using Inkscape or whatever), and a lot of<br/>lolcats are funny or amusing (yet often insightful). It is a whole new idea<br/>system and a very subversive at that, so much that both China and Iran blocked<br/>the Cheezburger network in their firewall, because they are afraid of it<br/>weakening their political power-structures and dogma (and as silly as it may<br/>seem, they are right about that).<br/><br/>The important thing to note is that one should &ldquo;embrace change&rdquo;. See:<br/><br/>http://www.robcottingham.ca/cartoon/archive/this-brain-this-brain-fire/<br/><br/>Regards,<br/><br/> Shlomi Fish<br/><br/>-- <br/>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/<br/>What does &quot;Zionism&quot; mean? - http://shlom.in/def-zionism<br/><br/>When Chuck Norris uses git, he takes a coffee break after initiating every git<br/>commit. And then he waits for the commit to finish.<br/><br/>Please reply to list if it&#39;s a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2651.html Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:46:16 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by eashton <br/>On Feb 1, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Johan Vromans &lt;jvromans@squirrel.nl&gt; wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; An impressive list of Perl success stories would surely do no harm.<br/><br/>Well, ORA has a few at http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/perl/news/success_stories.html <br/><br/>Perl is a niche language which is a way of saying it has a well defined range of purpose and is one of the reasons it&#39;s still on the map. <br/><br/>If there is one thing that could be done, it&#39;s cleaning up CPAN which is simultaneously the best thing that ever happened to Perl and the worst thing that ever happened to Perl. Even the most dedicated Perl fanatic cannot help but be frustrated when installing 1 module becomes a 100 module install marathon. I don&#39;t anticipate that will be embraced any more now than in the past when I have attempted to get some enthusiasm behind such a project but, I can always hope for the future. :)<br/><br/>e.<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2650.html Fri, 01 Feb 2013 19:02:09 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Richard Foley s/warn/warm/ # ?<br/><br/>-- <br/>Ciao<br/><br/>Richard Foley<br/><br/>http://www.rfi.net/books.html<br/><br/>On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 05:01:21PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:<br/>&gt; On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 05:54:53PM +0100, Richard Foley wrote:<br/>&gt; &gt; On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 04:25:32PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; I&#39;m not sure what the major difference is there with the point I was making,<br/>&gt; &gt; but never mind.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; No, me neither.<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; That&#39;s the second &quot;basic reading comprehension&quot; failure for today.<br/>&gt; (Fortunately the first one was a private message to my sister, so it&#39;s<br/>&gt; not archived for posterity)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Maybe I should give up and go to the pub. (Even if the one I&#39;m thinking of<br/>&gt; thinks that flash is the right thing to make a website from)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; &gt; It&#39;s doing extremely well, thank goodness. And the marketing is ground-swell,<br/>&gt; &gt; which proves individuals can make a difference, if there&#39;s enough of them ;-)<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; More warn bodies!<br/>&gt; <br/>&gt; Nicholas Clark<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2649.html Fri, 01 Feb 2013 17:39:25 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Johan Vromans eashton@mac.com writes:<br/><br/>&gt; I don&#39;t think perl needs marketing, it needs developers who anticipate<br/>&gt; and meet needs of those who might use the language to solve a problem.<br/>&gt; Most folks outside of the various communities really don&#39;t care what<br/>&gt; tool they use, just that it does the job.<br/><br/>An impressive list of Perl success stories would surely do no harm.<br/><br/>-- Johan<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2648.html Fri, 01 Feb 2013 17:06:25 +0000 Re: Perl's Glory Days Are Behind It, But It Isn't Going Anywhere by Nicholas Clark On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 05:54:53PM +0100, Richard Foley wrote:<br/>&gt; On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 04:25:32PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:<br/><br/>&gt; I&#39;m not sure what the major difference is there with the point I was making,<br/>&gt; but never mind.<br/><br/>No, me neither.<br/><br/>That&#39;s the second &quot;basic reading comprehension&quot; failure for today.<br/>(Fortunately the first one was a private message to my sister, so it&#39;s<br/>not archived for posterity)<br/><br/>Maybe I should give up and go to the pub. (Even if the one I&#39;m thinking of<br/>thinks that flash is the right thing to make a website from)<br/><br/>&gt; It&#39;s doing extremely well, thank goodness. And the marketing is ground-swell,<br/>&gt; which proves individuals can make a difference, if there&#39;s enough of them ;-)<br/><br/>More warn bodies!<br/><br/>Nicholas Clark<br/> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2013/02/msg2647.html Fri, 01 Feb 2013 17:01:33 +0000