perl.trainers

perl.trainers http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/ ... Copyright 1998-2008 perl.org Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:47:24 +0000 ask@perl.org Re: Course note creation by Jochen Stenzel Hello Jacinta, > [...] we write our course notes with a text editor in sgml > and then use sgmltools, jadetex, pdfeTeX, ps2pdf etc to get a pdf we can print > and distribute. We also have some of our more recent course notes written in > pod and use pod2docbook (our customised copy) to add that into the chain. > > [...] I love having plain text files to edit and being able > to use all the regular tools such as diff and CVS to manage changes. [...] > > [...] I don't understand how docbook works, and I have no idea > how to convert our system from using the scheme-like DTD DSSSL Style Sheet to > using something I do understand. > > I'm seriously considering alternate ways to build our course notes, and I'd love > to know what you do, and how that works for you. I am writing my notes as plain text files in PerlPoint (perlpoint.sf.net) and then process them into paged HTML for the slides to present (each headline starts a new slide), and into PDF for the printed handouts using sdf and ghtmldoc (generating PDF from HTML from SDF from PerlPoint). As I am one of the authors of PerlPoint I will try to avoid too much advertising (please see http://perlpoint.sf.net for for a feature list, overview and tutorial). It's just the tool I am using myself in course preparation for years now. It is not perfect (and still improved), but handy to produce both slides and PDF from one source (or a set of nested sources, respectively). Complex tasks can be hidden in macros written in Perl, macros can be used team-wide. Some basic formatting rules like the paragraph principle and the basic tag syntax are similar to POD so if one knows POD it should feel familiar. Existing POD files can be processed directly by using import filters. It's all written in Perl. Output generation can be adapted by overwriting methods in derived classes (although this API needs more documentation). The PDF look is based on the features provided by ghtmldoc, which includes a well looking generated TOC with chapter links, linked local TOCs, links to chapters and self-defined anchors, external URLs, tables, images, (kind of) footnotes, and formatting both in descriptions and examples. ghtmldoc allows to configure various aspects of the page layout - there might be more, but the required basics are well supported. As a disadvantage, bullet list points are more indented than examples in ghtmldoc PDFs (perhaps it is possible to arrange that better?). I would also like to have colored text in the PDF, but that's not supported at the moment (but b/w text is suitable for printed handouts). The subset of (intermediately used) HTML that is understood by ghtmldoc is limited, and it ignores CSS, so one gets a rather basic layout, but of a good quality. For HTML output, perlpoint.sf.net and the public version of the German Perl Workshop CD (http://puck.perl-workshop.de/ocd2007pub/index.html) are examples of larger documents that are available online (please use another browser than IE to look at them, we recently found an IE related layout requirement that is not applied to the public pages yet). Basically, the layout is determined by user provided HTML templates (called "styles") with placeholders for the generated parts. These styles can use CSS, Javascript etc. and are selected by an option, so one can switch between them. Best regards Jochen http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2008/03/msg605.html Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:28:15 +0000 Re: Course note creation by Gabor Szabo Hi Jacinta and others! I am using docbook for creating my course material but I keep my example files separate and added a new tag to docbook <include file="">. These files first go through some home made preprocessing where I replace those include tags with the relevant files and then I use jw to process the docbook files. I am not very satisfied with the results but so far this is the best I could come up with that is relatively easy to write and then I can create both HTML slides and PDF to print. There are plenty of text based presentation generators out there and it seems more or less everyone reinvents it at least once or twice. Gabor http://www.szabgab.com/ http://www.pti.co.il/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2008/03/msg604.html Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:55:13 +0000 Course note creation by Jacinta Richardson G'day folk, At Perl Training Australia we write our course notes with a text editor in sgml and then use sgmltools, jadetex, pdfeTeX, ps2pdf etc to get a pdf we can print and distribute. We also have some of our more recent course notes written in pod and use pod2docbook (our customised copy) to add that into the chain. This works well enough. I love having plain text files to edit and being able to use all the regular tools such as diff and CVS to manage changes. However there are a whole bunch of little issues that really annoy me. Mostly this is because I don't understand how docbook works, and I have no idea how to convert our system from using the scheme-like DTD DSSSL Style Sheet to using something I do understand. I'm seriously considering alternate ways to build our course notes, and I'd love to know what you do, and how that works for you. All the best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2008/03/msg603.html Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:35:06 +0000 Re: Perl versus UNIX Korn Shell by Tim Maher On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 12:57:41PM -0800, Andrew Savige wrote: > Like Anthony Esposito in Nov 2003, I had a need recently to persuade > some folks to use Perl rather than Unix shell and remembered this > old thread. I've summarized my arguments at: > > http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=668481 > Feedback welcome. > Thanks, > /-\ Much of my recent book (see .sig below) is dedicated to demonstrating how Korn/Bash/POSIX shell scripts can either benefit tremendously from Perl's assistance or be replaced entirely by Perl scripts. For a free sample, download the "Scripting Techniques" chapter from http://minimalperl.com/#Downloads *---------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX http://www.consultix-inc.com | | tim at ( Consultix-Inc, TeachMeLinux, or TeachMeUnix ) dot Com | *-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+---* | > "Minimal Perl for UNIX People" has been an Amazon Best Seller! < | | * Download chapters, read reviews, and order at MinimalPerl.com * | *---------------------------------------------------------------------* http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2008/02/msg602.html Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:39:19 +0000 Re: Perl versus UNIX Korn Shell by Andrew Savige Like Anthony Esposito in Nov 2003, I had a need recently to persuade some folks to use Perl rather than Unix shell and remembered this old thread. I've summarized my arguments at: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=668481 Feedback welcome. Thanks, /-\ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2008/02/msg601.html Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:57:53 +0000 Perl Courses by John Arbes Does anyone have any recommendations on Perl Courses either online or offline? I'm located in New York but, if a course is good enough, am willing to travel. I'm looking for both beginner and advanced recommendations. Also, please let me know if you have any opinions about HOTT's course: http://www.traininghott.com/Courses/Perl-Programming-CGI-Scripting.htm Thanks in advance, John http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/08/msg600.html Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:12:11 +0000 Perl survey by Gabor Szabo I am sure many of you have already seen the survey. I think it would be very useful to reach people in companies who are not on the regular mailing lists and web forums and get them fill in the form. Hence we are going to contact our clients and ask the people who participated in my Perl classes to take the survey. I hope many other Perl trainers will try to reach their own clients with this request. Gabor ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: José Alves de Castro <jose@pm.org> Date: Jul 27, 2007 11:56 AM Subject: [pm_groups] Perl survey To: pm_groups@pm.org Cc: info@perlsurvey.org Hi, guys! Kirrily is doing a Perl survey :-) I answered the questions and it seems to be an interesting and valuable effort. For those of you who don't know Kirrily (aka Skud), I can vouch for her. She's one of us :-) That said, she'd appreciate it if you all took some time to take her survey and to convince your pm'ers to take it too. Cheers, :-) jac Begin forwarded message: > Take part in the 2007 Perl Survey! > > The Perl Survey is an attempt to capture a picture of the Perl > community > in all its diversity. No matter what sort of Perl programmer you are, > we'd love to hear from you. > > The survey can be found at: http://perlsurvey.org > > It only takes about 5 minutes to complete. > > The survey will be open until September 30th, 2007. After that, > we'll be > reporting on the results and making the data freely available. > > Please feel free to forward this email to anyone other Perl > programmers > you know. > > Thanks for your help! > > Yours, > > Kirrily "Skud" Robert > The Perl Survey > info@perlsurvey.org -- Jose Castro TPF Community Relations Leader -- Request pm.org Technical Support via support@pm.org pm_groups mailing list pm_groups@pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups -- Gabor Szabo http://www.szabgab.com/ Perl Training in Israel http://www.pti.co.il/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/07/msg599.html Sun, 29 Jul 2007 01:08:43 +0000 Labs, Solutions, Student Guides, Lab Guides, and projected images by Michael R. Wolf When creating hands on exercises, how do you create and maintain separate views of similar code for labs, solutions, printed student guides, printed lab guides, and projected images? For example, the following 3 views may be interesting: 1. Solution: A complete, debugged, production-ready solution. 2. Lab: A "starter" file with scaffolding that works to exercise the exercise, but with critical code fragments removed, and extra comments (or POD) as introduction and directions for the student. 3. Student Guide (or Projected Image) : A printable (projectile) subset of code, with scaffolding replaced by ellipses or comments, and main points highlighted. Extra points: 1. The "super source" uses a standard file format (XML, Perl) so that editor syntax highlighting can work. 2. The labs pass "perl -c" and run, even though parts are missing. 3. The projected images pass "perl -c", even though they're colorized and highlighted. 3. It integrates Test::Simple or Test::More. 4. The lab file "view" has $Test::More::TODO in blocks around the gutted/failing parts. 5. Running prove(1) passes the solution and fails the lab. 6. Projected Image has colorized syntax. 7. Student Guide has instructor supplied highlighting and annotations. I've been using the "obvious" method of being a digital ditch-digging, money at a typewriter. It's not great. I'm a human. I make mistakes and oversights. I change one but hot the other. The "ultimate" method seems to require a XML-like folding-editor that exists only in my mind. Where have you found the sweet spot? Michael P.S. Simplified "projected views" follow. I couldn't simulate the emboldened and colorized text, but I'm sure you get the ides. Solution ================================================================ Solution ================================================================ #! /usr/bin/perl use warnings; use strict; # Initialize hash... my %color_of = { # key value # fruit color apple => 'red', pear => 'yellow', banana => 'yellow', ); # Add a lemon... $color_of{lemon} = 'yellow'; # Age a banana... $color_of{banana} = 'brown'; # Loop through all the keys (fruits)... my $fruit (sort keys %color_of) { # Look up the value (color)... my $color = $color_of{$fruit}; # Display the key/value (fruit/color)... print "A $fruit is $color\n"; } Lab ================================================================ Lab ================================================================ #! /usr/bin/perl use warnings; use strict; =begin lab_guide In this exercise you will create a hash, add to it, delete from it, iterate over it, and display it. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Pellentesque mi. Cras sodales purus et magna. Praesent nec est. Sed quis magna in mauris luctus laoreet. =end # Initialize hash... =begin lab_guide # Step 1. Create a %color_of hash that allows you to look up a fruit (key) and find its color (value). Initialize it with at least 4 fruit/color (key/value) pairs. =end my %color_of = { # key value # fruit color =begin lab_guide ## <<Your code goes here.>> =end ); # Add a lemon... =begin lab_guide # Step 2. Lemons are yellow. =end # Age a banana... =begin lab_guide # Step 3. The banans sat around too long. They are now brown. =end $color_of{banana} = 'brown'; =begin lab_guide Use a 'forach' loop and the 'keys' operator on the %color_of hash to iterate over all the keys (fruits). Inside the body, look up the value (color), then display both. =end Projected image ================================================================ Projected image ================================================================ my %color_of = { apple => 'red', pear => 'yellow', [....] ); $color_of{lemon} = 'yellow'; [...] my $fruit (sort keys %color_of) { my $color = $color_of{$fruit}; print "A $fruit is $color\n"; } -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/07/msg598.html Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:05:33 +0000 Re: Bookings management software by Gabor Szabo Hi, Have you considered looking at ACT? http://news.perl-foundation.org/2007/01/a_conference_toolkit_act_goes.html While it was originally developed for organizing YAPCs it might be further developed to do what you need as well. Gabor -- Gabor Szabo http://www.szabgab.com/ Perl Training in Israel http://www.pti.co.il/ 08-975-2897 054-4624648 http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/02/msg597.html Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:38:58 +0000 Perl trainnig in South America by Gabor Szabo Someone from Argentina has just asked me for a Perl training company near-by. I have heard only about Dextra Sistemas in Brazil. Are there other training companies in South or Central America? Gabor Perl Training Israel http://www.pti.co.il/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/02/msg596.html Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:04:58 +0000 RE: Bookings management software by Michael R. Wolf A bit off-target, but possibly of use.... I'm on the board of a local SIG of the ACM. I moved some of the "member data" from Excel to Access (guess that was a step in the right direction) before realizing that I was heading down the trail of reinventing a whole suite of member management tools. As I'm looking around, I'm noticing that a lot of the features in tools that we are *not* interested in would be helpful for what you *are* interested in. Here's the kinds of things that "groups" (e.g. church groups, gyms, professional associations, etc.) have to do to maintain their "membership". Although you're coming at it from a "business" perspective and might be tempted to look at "customer relationship management" tools (CRM floods the market), looking at it from an "event management" perspective may help you: - event calendars - member profile management - online registration and payment - automatic email notifications (date- and finance-based) - reports sliced every way to Sunday - ID badges (name tags) - group email (for many definitions of 'group') - web-hosted or PC-based (we want collaboration on hosted, but you may be OK with pc-based) - TODO lists - non-member contacts (conference halls, hotels, etc..) - discussion forums - newsletter distribution - document downloading - mail-merge What synchronicity... The president and I are meeting to discuss this kind of software in about 2 hours, so I have some fresh in my brain. Do a search for "event management software" or "group/club management software". We're looking at companies like memberize.com, regonline.com, clubexpress.com, irm-systems.com. I'm only about 2 hours into the research, so YMMV. Also, there is a huge cost spread. I just called a company who has an entry price of $125,000! Their web page looked very similar to a $5 per member per year site. I'm looking to see if our grassroots solution could be replicated in other SIG's around the world, but he's got a top-down approach and I've got a bottom-up budget. When we've done online registrations in the past, we had options of paying a percentage of the fee or a flat rate per registrant. When we did the math, the break even was at about 100 conferees. Also, watch out for their target group size. We tried a disasterous software package for our most recent tutorial. The politics were the deciding factor there; she pushed it through, said she'd shepherd it, then vanished. It was release 1.0. Enough said? The 1.0 issues aside, we found out that it was more tuned to a large conference with a dedicated, central contact person who knew the software (i.e. a power user). There are other tools that are more tuned to collaboration and "baby speak". Let us know how your searching goes. I'll report back, too, if I find that this genre of software may be useful. -- Michael R. Wolf MichaelRWolf@att.net **NOTE** new, shorter spelling of obsolescent MichaelRunningWolf-at-att.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Jacinta Richardson [mailto:jarich@perltraining.com.au] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:45 PM > To: perl-trainers@perl.org > Subject: Bookings management software > > G'day everyone, > > I have a question for those on the list who run publicly enrolable > courses. How > do you handle your bookings? > > At the moment we use a combination of nms-formmail, RT, LaTeX, a wiki and > memory. It works but is time consuming. I've done a few web searches but > I > haven't found any course booking software which matches what I'm looking > for > which has: > > * automatic invoice generation (which I can then edit if I want > before > printing) > * automatic cover letter and email generation (again editable) > * various status levels: entered into accounting software, paid, > processed, payment reminder sent... > * attendance lists > * book lists (we give out free books as part of our early bird) > * customisable reports; particularly ones which estimate course > profitability, and ones which can be used as reminders to print > course > manuals, order books, confirm facilities etc. > > etc. I'm considering writing my own as a good way to learn either Jifty > or > Catalyst, but I thought I'd ask to see if anyone on here had a working > solution > already. It doesn't have to do everything, as long as I can customise it. > Failing that, what would you like to see in such a tool? > > Jacinta > > -- > ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | > `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | > (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | > _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | > (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/02/msg595.html Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:20:06 +0000 Bookings management software by Jacinta Richardson G'day everyone, I have a question for those on the list who run publicly enrolable courses. How do you handle your bookings? At the moment we use a combination of nms-formmail, RT, LaTeX, a wiki and memory. It works but is time consuming. I've done a few web searches but I haven't found any course booking software which matches what I'm looking for which has: * automatic invoice generation (which I can then edit if I want before printing) * automatic cover letter and email generation (again editable) * various status levels: entered into accounting software, paid, processed, payment reminder sent... * attendance lists * book lists (we give out free books as part of our early bird) * customisable reports; particularly ones which estimate course profitability, and ones which can be used as reminders to print course manuals, order books, confirm facilities etc. etc. I'm considering writing my own as a good way to learn either Jifty or Catalyst, but I thought I'd ask to see if anyone on here had a working solution already. It doesn't have to do everything, as long as I can customise it. Failing that, what would you like to see in such a tool? Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/02/msg594.html Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:44:53 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Johan Vromans "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni@gmail.com> writes: > (also, some people have ideological problems with the licensing of > Java libraries) Windows people? You must be kidding ;-). -- Johan http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg593.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:25:03 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Amir E. Aharoni > Anyone know of any good, free editors for windows? I'm a vi guy, but on > my Mac for presentations I use TextWrangler because of it's "Run / Check > Syntax" feature. Is there a Win equivalent? Eclipse IDE with the EPIC plugin does some basic Perl 5 editing and debugging. Pro - it's free and cross-platform. Con - it has a lot of bugs itself and Eclipse is a 100+ MB download (also, some people have ideological problems with the licensing of Java libraries) http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg592.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:34:30 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Brad Lhotsky Anytime I've been _forced_ to use windows, I normally install Cygwin and LiteStep. I know my way around it, but I'm not 100% my students will. So I'll have to design examples to do the whole activestate + doubleclick thing. Anyone know of any good, free editors for windows? I'm a vi guy, but on my Mac for presentations I use TextWrangler because of it's "Run / Check Syntax" feature. Is there a Win equivalent? On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 01:10:52PM -0600, Danny R. Faught wrote: > Brad Lhotsky wrote: > > I'm budgetting > > more than 8x factor Randal suggested as I'm a Mac/Linux guy and the > > laptops provided for instruction are all WinXP. > > That's okay - you can make Windows act like Unix when you install Cygwin. > > It's a bit confusing when you try to mix the two views of the filesystem, e.g., "perl /tmp/script.pl" doesn't work in a Cygwin shell if you're using a native Windows build of Perl like ActiveState, and neither does "perl c:\temp\script.pl". > -- > Danny R. Faught > Tejas Software Consulting > http://tejasconsulting.com/ > -- Brad Lhotsky http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg591.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:23:03 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Danny R. Faught Brad Lhotsky wrote: > I'm budgetting > more than 8x factor Randal suggested as I'm a Mac/Linux guy and the > laptops provided for instruction are all WinXP. That's okay - you can make Windows act like Unix when you install Cygwin. It's a bit confusing when you try to mix the two views of the filesystem, e.g., "perl /tmp/script.pl" doesn't work in a Cygwin shell if you're using a native Windows build of Perl like ActiveState, and neither does "perl c:\temp\script.pl". -- Danny R. Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://tejasconsulting.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg590.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:11:10 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Brad Lhotsky I wanted to thank everyoe who replied on and off list. I certainly understand the time it takes to prepare for the class. I'm budgetting more than 8x factor Randal suggested as I'm a Mac/Linux guy and the laptops provided for instruction are all WinXP. When I do get the course material done, I'll post it on the internet for free. Thanks again! On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 05:41:16AM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Smylers" == Smylers <Smylers@stripey.com> writes: > > Smylers> Generally allow 5 times as long to write material as to present it; > Smylers> that is, allow a week to write a 1-day course. Possibly longer if > Smylers> you're new to writing training materials. > > [...] > > Smylers> The way round this is to work backwards: > > [...] > > This is all very excellent advice, echoing what I would have said too. > > The only thing I would caution on is that "5x" is a bit low. I typically > allocate 8x on a new course (a workday per hour), and only about things I'm > familiar with. Even more time if I have to figure out what's important, and > what I can leave out. > > The other thing to keep in mind (as we've presented in our "Teaching 'Learning > Perl'" course a couple of times at conferences) is that you should be very > clear about the "end points" of your course. Where will you imagine everyone > is starting? Where do you think they all want to end up? And then be sure to > communicate that. > > For example, we presume everyone knows subroutines and arrays before they > start the llama, so we get to set the expectations very quickly in the first > hour, and we don't have to spend time describing why someone might want a > subroutine or array. > > Once you have the begin and end point, MAKE THAT A STRAIGHT LINE. You may be > tempted to throw a lot more stuff in there, but if you do, you will quickly > exceed the time allotted for your course (and for you to write the materials). > People can add their own "bushiness" to the knowledge once they get the > "trunk". But you have to teach the whole trunk, or people will be lost. > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! > -- Brad Lhotsky http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg589.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:00:31 +0000 Perl Instruction at NIH by Christopher Hicks On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 02:42:09PM -0600, Brad Lhotsky wrote: > I'd be eternally grateful for any advice or sample material that would > save me some time preparing the class. The Kirrily "Skud" Roberts content is quite good and is available from http://wiki.fini.net/bin/view/PerlClass/SkudContent I've been meaning to revise it for American English and current usage, but its still a great place to start such a project. -- </chris> The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872-1970) http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg588.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:25:46 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Geoffrey Young Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>>"Smylers" == Smylers <Smylers@stripey.com> writes: > > > Smylers> Generally allow 5 times as long to write material as to present it; > Smylers> that is, allow a week to write a 1-day course. Possibly longer if > Smylers> you're new to writing training materials. > The only thing I would caution on is that "5x" is a bit low. I typically > allocate 8x on a new course (a workday per hour), and only about things I'm > familiar with. Even more time if I have to figure out what's important, and > what I can leave out. this number depends on lots of factors - personally, I find it takes me a solid work-week (40 hours) to produce a 1 hour presentation of new material (that is, new presentation material on technology I'm very intimate with). but lots of that has to do with the kind of style I like to present in, how smoothly I want things to flow, etc. culling together existing materials into something new takes less time. but still, the more time you put into something the more polished it will be (and the more your attendees will appreciate it). my point is that I don't think you can over estimate the amount of time it will take to come up with a quality presentation the first (or first dozen times) you do it. but once you get into a groove you may find that your own timeline can vary quite a bit between that of your peers. good luck. --Geoff http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg587.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:53:26 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by merlyn >>>>> "Smylers" == Smylers <Smylers@stripey.com> writes: Smylers> Generally allow 5 times as long to write material as to present it; Smylers> that is, allow a week to write a 1-day course. Possibly longer if Smylers> you're new to writing training materials. [...] Smylers> The way round this is to work backwards: [...] This is all very excellent advice, echoing what I would have said too. The only thing I would caution on is that "5x" is a bit low. I typically allocate 8x on a new course (a workday per hour), and only about things I'm familiar with. Even more time if I have to figure out what's important, and what I can leave out. The other thing to keep in mind (as we've presented in our "Teaching 'Learning Perl'" course a couple of times at conferences) is that you should be very clear about the "end points" of your course. Where will you imagine everyone is starting? Where do you think they all want to end up? And then be sure to communicate that. For example, we presume everyone knows subroutines and arrays before they start the llama, so we get to set the expectations very quickly in the first hour, and we don't have to spend time describing why someone might want a subroutine or array. Once you have the begin and end point, MAKE THAT A STRAIGHT LINE. You may be tempted to throw a lot more stuff in there, but if you do, you will quickly exceed the time allotted for your course (and for you to write the materials). People can add their own "bushiness" to the knowledge once they get the "trunk". But you have to teach the whole trunk, or people will be lost. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg586.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:30:13 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Smylers Brad Lhotsky writes: > I work as a security adminisrtator at a small NIH sub-organization. Hi there. I've no idea what NIH is, but I suspect it doesn't matter for my response. > Is there any advice for what my expectations of material coverage will > be for a 9-4 class ? Generally allow 5 times as long to write material as to present it; that is, allow a week to write a 1-day course. Possibly longer if you're new to writing training materials. > I didn't actually have any coding exercises, which I'd like to have in > this new class. ... I'm just asking for any "helpful" advice the > veterans would be willing to bestow on a fledgling perl trainer? Obviously for exercises to work it has to be possible to answer them using the material previously covered. If you present material in what seems like a logical order from a taxonomic point of view you may struggle to think up exercises that are possible using only what's already been taught. Or you may write exercises that seem plausible, but actually when doing them you would naturally use constructs that haven't been introduced yet, so you end up with a roomful of people writing programs that aren't representative of what you'd recommend. The way round this is to work backwards: * First write a few 'sample solutions' that are the kind of program that you hope folks to be able to come up with after each session. * Then come up with some questions to which those sample solutions are possible answers. * Lastly write the presentation that covers the material needed to answer the questions. If you find yourself wanting to include something because it seems 'orthogonal' with other material you're mentioning but isn't actually useful for the exercises you've written then stop and question whether it's necessary. For example I've seen Perl courses where there's a section which covers "operators", and does so comprehensively, even though, say, the bitwise operators aren't particularly useful at that stage. Similarly C<or> is very handy for catching errors (such as in 'open this file or die'); C<and> is much less commonly seen and doesn't _have_ to be mentioned just because C<or> has been. Remember that presentations are good at explaining concepts, but bad at dispensing lists for the audience to memorize. People new to Perl are likely to need concepts like context explaining; however once shown in general how to call built-in functions they are likely to be able to cope with calling C<uc>, C<hex>, C<index>, and so on without further assistance (and those that aren't wouldn't be able to take in a presentation in which every function was explained in turn anyway). So make sure that you show people perldoc -f or perldoc.perl.org (backed up with exercises that involve using functions that haven't been explicitly explained), and search.cpan.org. Have fun, and good luck! Smylers http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg585.html Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:47:25 +0000 Re: Perl Instruction at NIH by Peter Scott On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:42:09 -0600, Brad Lhotsky wrote: > I'd be eternally grateful for any advice or sample material that would > save me some time preparing the class. I'm not getting paid for the > class besides the fact that my boss considers the time spent preparing > and instructing "work time". I'm not asking for anyone "to do my > homework". I'm just asking for any "helpful" advice the veterans would > be willing to bestow on a fledgling perl trainer? Your best bet the first time out: use the latest Llama book as a workbook. Give everyone one and work through it from the beginning for as far as you can get in the time you have. -- Peter Scott http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg584.html Sat, 27 Jan 2007 06:32:31 +0000 Perl Instruction at NIH by Brad Lhotsky Well, I've gone and done it now. I work as a security adminisrtator at a small NIH sub-organization. I've been a fairly passionate perl programmer since 1999. I got my share of "stop reinventing the wheel" from Randal on Perlmonks, and I've amassed a collection of O'Reilly books on perl that I actually _read_. I've digested Perl Best Practices and use it as a guideline for my coding practices. I also wrote a few articles for developer.com (which thanks to brian d. foy's "So you want to write about Perl" YAPC presentation I learned was not the best sort of deal). Using PBP and my personal experiences with the community I constructed a "Perl Introduction for ISSO's (Information System's Security Officers)" at NIH. The presentation went _really_ well. I have the course materials available online at: http://divisionbyzero.net/blog/perl-isso-class/ It was supposed to be a one time deal to get other NIH Security Staff interested in hiring perl programmers so I'd have people to talk to. However, the class was well received and thanks to things like BioPerl, NIH wants me back to o a full day "hands on programming perl class" with a target audience of systems, network, and security admins with some programming background. Most of the people on this list making their living teaching perl and I'm not interested in competing. I'm interested in wetting people's appetites for Perl. I'd gladly include contact information for anyone on this list as "further instruction can be provided by these great people" on the slides and printouts. My motivation is to give back to the community, who are entirely responsible for my inability to not type "use strict;\nuse warnings;\n" after typing "#!/usr/bin/perl". I also have been giving consideration to putting together a presentation for a YAPC or other perl conference, only being a dork, I need to work on my "comfort level in front of a large group of people". Is there any advice for what my expectations of material coverage will be for a 9-4 class ? My first class was an overview. I didn't actually have any coding exercises, which I'd like to have in this new class. I'd be eternally grateful for any advice or sample material that would save me some time preparing the class. I'm not getting paid for the class besides the fact that my boss considers the time spent preparing and instructing "work time". I'm not asking for anyone "to do my homework". I'm just asking for any "helpful" advice the veterans would be willing to bestow on a fledgling perl trainer? -- Brad Lhotsky http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2007/01/msg583.html Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:42:17 +0000 Re: Hiring training facilities. by Peter Scott On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:09:00 +0200, Johan Vromans wrote: > Likewise, notepad does not understand files that have only \n as lime > terminators, Wordpad does. Any system that has Notepad should have Wordpad. > so students were not able to inspect the data files that I > provided them for the exercises. Nowadays I provide special copies with > CRLF endings. -- Peter Scott http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/10/msg582.html Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:57:42 +0000 Re: Hiring training facilities. by Johan Vromans "Michael R. Wolf" <MichaelRunningWolf@att.net> writes: > that any old notepad/cmd.exe or vi/ksh combination will work. One problem I once ran into was that the students on Windows got slightly different results from the students using Linux. Turned out that the Windows editor they used did not provide a final newline. Likewise, notepad does not understand files that have only \n as lime terminators, so students were not able to inspect the data files that I provided them for the exercises. Nowadays I provide special copies with CRLF endings. -- Johan http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/10/msg581.html Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:22:58 +0000 RE: Hiring training facilities. by Michael R. Wolf Don't sweat the fire drill thing again. In 10+ years of training, it's only happened to me once. I don't count on the facilities being OK, even when I'm teaching for a trusted client of mine that has 10 of their own facilities. I'm hosting the class. I'm the host. It would be nice if the facility took that responsibility as seriously as I did, but I don't leave my responsibility to their employees, or worse yet, their non-employees since some sites are not staffed by full time employees and are often inadequately stocked by other contractors. In short, I make the hosting my responsibility. I bring my own coffee and milk (preferring *not* to rely on powdered non-dairy whitener even before I moved to hyper-javinated Seattle). I also bring my own pastries and fruit. I also bring my own salty snacks, sweet snacks, hard candy, candy bars, cookies, and crackers because I've found that to be the mix of snacks that covers most students. I've been fortunate in that I can usually leave these behind and invoice the client for "site provisioning". If you figure that most hotels charge 5 - 10 USD per student per day for a continental breakfast, you can see that "drinks and snacks" can add up quickly. But it also pays dividends in customer satisfaction. Armys aren't the only things that move on their stomachs. I often get asked to set up in a hotel (like I'm doing this week). I have to call ahead to make sure that they don't try to set up 18 inch tables. Students need 3 feet to have reference material, caffeine, sugar, a keyboard, and a mouse. Don't try to skimp on workspace; if you're tempted, read the "Furniture Police" chapter in "Peopleware", DeMarco and Listner's great book on software development. As far as machine specifications, I can't remember having a machine that's too barebones to run an intro or intermediate Perl class. The beauty of the language is a beauty of teaching the language -- it's not a resource hog. Linux vs Windows -- I don't care. The Perl constructs are so far above the OS that any old notepad/cmd.exe or vi/ksh combination will work. (I have found some notepad-like editors on Linux to be helpful if I've got some non-Unix folks on a Linux platform. We're using Kate this week. I guess Kate ::== K Advanced Text Editor). That is, while teaching Perl, I get beyond the editor, command line interpreter, and operating system. Most students can get beyond them pretty effectively if I focus them on the power of Perl. Hope this answered some of your concerns. (Sorry it's so long since the original posting. This draft fell into the cracks.) -- Michael R. Wolf MichaelRWolf@att.net **NOTE** new, shorter spelling of obsolescent MichaelRunningWolf-at-att.net http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/10/msg580.html Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:17:00 +0000 Re: Hiring training facilities. by Steven Lembark -- Rich Bowen <rbowen@rcbowen.com> > I've had this problem almost every time I do training on-site. If it's > onsite, they seem to not take their investment seriously, and wander in > and out. I had a training where, of 18 people registered, only one > person was actually there for the entire time of the class, with the > rest of them wandering in and out, having 2-3 hour meetings, leaving > early, arriving late, and so on. And that one person wasn't exactly the > most interested student. The folks that really wanted to learn the > material ended up being there less than half the time. One fix that's worked well for us at Cheetahmail is to have an open class on Saturday for some subsidized rate (say $200) with the local company picking up the room charge and paying the head count for their employees who show up. That allows the teacher to balance out the lower fee with a few more people and gives the people showing up a chance to do so without work impinging on their daily routine. Net result is a win-win with the company getting a lower fee and the atendees getting a chance to learn in peace :-) -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark@wrkhors.com 1 888 359 3508 http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/10/msg579.html Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:58:21 +0000 RE: Hiring training facilities. by Michael R. Wolf > When renting class-rooms we usually give lunch vouchers and serve > coffee and refreshments. This is the 'standard' or 'expected' in the > local training industry. Interesting. In US, that's not the norm; students expect to buy their own lunch. Most are able to expense it back to their company. I guess that both your culture and mine have a way to make sure that the student doesn't have to pay for their own lunch while on training. It's just two different solutions. In rare occasions, when I'm teaching an on-site, the manager will realize that it's just good plain financial sense to maximize the student time in class, and they will order lunch to be delivered. The even smarter ones realize that the money isn't even the biggest issue -- they get great team building opportunity for the group to bond and debrief over lunch. And the manager gets feel-good points for it from his team. It's nice to have your boss buy you lunch every once in a while. When I'm teaching at a vendor site, they usually have snacks and drinks available. Most of them are free. They all have free coffee in the morning. Most have fruit or pastries. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/09/msg578.html Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:27:13 +0000 Re: Hiring training facilities. by Rich Bowen > > The biggest trouble usually is actually that we are on-site. > Many managers expect their workers to do their daily job > more-or-less even while they are in class. That means many times > students have to read their e-mail and respond to them. > Many times they are even taken out from the class. > Once they are out for 2-3 hours usually they cannot > come back as they cannot follow the class any more. > Once I had a class where we started with 21 ppl and after > 5 days we ended with 4. But at least those 4 were satisfied. > I've had this problem almost every time I do training on-site. If it's onsite, they seem to not take their investment seriously, and wander in and out. I had a training where, of 18 people registered, only one person was actually there for the entire time of the class, with the rest of them wandering in and out, having 2-3 hour meetings, leaving early, arriving late, and so on. And that one person wasn't exactly the most interested student. The folks that really wanted to learn the material ended up being there less than half the time. > > If we could ensure that people who are only familiar with Windows > would be > able to work on Windows and similarly people who are not familiar > with vi and > emacs would have at least nedit installed on Unix/Linux. > That would be a huge step in reducing frustration in the class. The training that I do tends to be *nix specific (While I've done Perl training, mostly I'm an Apache trainer) and so I tend to spend a significant portion of every class with that one or two people who are completely new to *nix. -- rbowen@rcbowen.com Come to ApacheCon US 2006! http://us.apachecon.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/09/msg577.html Tue, 19 Sep 2006 04:52:47 +0000 Re: Hiring training facilities. by Gabor Szabo Hi Jacinta, On 9/15/06, Jacinta Richardson <jarich@perltraining.com.au> wrote: > G'day everyone, > > Who here has their own training facilities? We don't own facilities either. Most of our trainings are on-site but even there we bump into trouble with classrooms. We try to recommend them a setup but in the end we go with what the client has. Many times it is far from being optimal. The biggest trouble usually is actually that we are on-site. Many managers expect their workers to do their daily job more-or-less even while they are in class. That means many times students have to read their e-mail and respond to them. Many times they are even taken out from the class. Once they are out for 2-3 hours usually they cannot come back as they cannot follow the class any more. Once I had a class where we started with 21 ppl and after 5 days we ended with 4. But at least those 4 were satisfied. When talking about the facilities the things I ask for is to have enough space so I can get next to each student to help in the lab work. This is not always possible as sometimes classrooms are too packed. Machine specs are not important but we ask for basic software to be installed. Perl 5.8 + Text Editor students are familiar with. Putty or similar if working on a remote Unix/Linux machine. + Internet connection. Unfortunately even this is not always easy. We tell the training manager to ask the students which OS and which editor do they prefer - after all most of what I teach is OS independent - but in the end in the classroom I see many people breaking their fingers with what they have. e.g. Windows-only people working on Unix with vi.... If we could ensure that people who are only familiar with Windows would be able to work on Windows and similarly people who are not familiar with vi and emacs would have at least nedit installed on Unix/Linux. That would be a huge step in reducing frustration in the class. When on-site the lunch, coffee and refreshment situation is the same as they normally have in the specific client. Sometimes it is very good but in other cases we just eat too much... When renting class-rooms we usually give lunch vouchers and serve coffee and refreshments. This is the 'standard' or 'expected' in the local training industry. Gabor -- Gabor Szabo http://www.szabgab.com/ Perl Training in Israel http://www.pti.co.il 08-975-2897 054-4624648 http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/09/msg576.html Tue, 19 Sep 2006 04:23:23 +0000 Hiring training facilities. by Jacinta Richardson G'day everyone, Who here has their own training facilities? For those of us who don't (and Perl Training Australia is definitely in this boat), how do you handle arranging labs in another city when it isn't convenient for you to go and check them out? Do you try to get someone you know to give them a look over? Do you always make the time to fly out and ensure they're sufficient? Or do you just trust that things will probably be okay? What do you look for in a training facility? Do you care about the machine specifications? How important is it that morning and afternoon tea are served? Do you test their coffee? Do you make use of lunch vouchers or in-house catering or do you let attendees buy their own lunches? I'm curious as to how you arrange labs for your training courses. Please feel free to add questions. For us: We often don't make the time to check out labs in other cities before training at them. We usually want to do so, but time often gets away from us. This has bitten us badly once when the staff at the facility turned out to want to close the doors at 4:30pm when we had pitched our class to run from 9-5. Unfortunately, sometimes even checking out the labs isn't enough to find out whether or not they are suitable. A room can seem quite pleasant when it's empty and you walk in half way through the day; but it can be down right nasty by 4pm on a warm day with all the machines turned on and 15 bodies working away. Separate air conditioners for each room are important. In a training facility we look for: * Clear, large monitors. 17" minimum with a decent resolution. * Lots of elbow room between attendees * Quiet, very sharp data projector * Decent air conditioning. Machine specifications are typically irrelevant (we don't teach anything which can stress a low-end machine), so we often laugh when we're offered RAM and processor upgrades. Morning and afternoon tea is nice, although we'll cope okay if there are just biscuits as well. Good coffee seems to be really hard to find. What is it with training facilities providing "freshly brewed" sludge? We always use lunch vouchers, although we prefer it if these vouchers are accepted in more than one location. Our most recent course only had a single location (we were assured there would be more) and although none of the students complained I was a bit disappointed. A new training room criteria I'm thinking of adding is a question regarding fire drills and floor wardens. I know this sounds hopelessly paranoid, but it isn't really. In our course today we stopped for morning tea at about 11:10 and came back at about 11:25am. At 11:30 we were told that there was going to be a fire drill in about 5 minutes but we wouldn't have to evacuate. At 11:35 we were asked to leave the building. The fire warden for the training facility then proceeded to leave; rather than ensuring that the floor was cleared etc. In the mix-up of people on the stairs we lost some of our students too. :( The whole thing took about an hour, so I'm glad we decided to solve it by breaking for lunch really early, and then having 2 afternoon tea breaks. I'll be asking my next facility when I book: * Is there a fire drill scheduled that week and * Who is your fire warden, and do they know what they're doing? If it were possible to mark the fire wardens on their jobs I would have had to give ours a 1/10. All the best, J -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/09/msg575.html Fri, 15 Sep 2006 04:02:06 +0000 Re: Compilation failed in require by Andrew Savige --- Bala Murugan <kbalu123@gmail.com> wrote: > While running the following temp.pl script, it throws the following error > message. ... <snipped perl question> This is a list for Perl trainers to discuss Perl training issues. Accordingly, this is the wrong list for questions about Perl. If you want a quick answer, I suggest you post your question at: http://www.perlmonks.org/ If you prefer mailing lists, I suggest posting your question on this mailing list: http://lists.cpan.org/showlist.cgi?name=perl-beginner Good luck, /-\ ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 Messenger - Make free PC-to-PC calls to your friends overseas. http://au.messenger.yahoo.com http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/08/msg574.html Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:22:08 +0000 Compilation failed in require by Bala Murugan Hi All, While running the following temp.pl script, it throws the following error message. $ perl temp.pl HELLO Compilation failed in require at temp.pl line 2. $ $ cat temp.pl #!/usr/bin/perl require "/home/bala/hello.pl"; $ cat hello.pl #!/usr/bin/perl die "HELLO\n"; If anyone knows, could you please let me know the reason and solution to this issue? Regards, Bala. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/08/msg573.html Wed, 23 Aug 2006 03:52:59 +0000 Last-minute repeat: OSCON BOF for Perl Trainers by Peter Scott I've scheduled the usual BOF for Perl trainers at the beginning of OSCON to avoid conflict with the more popular events. See http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2006/view/e_sess/9380 which says: Date: Monday, July 24 Time: 7:00pm - 8:00pm Location: Portland 252 Do you teach Perl? Whether you make your entire living running a Perl training business, or whether you've been coopted to bring your workgroup up to speed on Perl, this BOF is for you to meet others who are in the same position. Come and share the lessons you've learned, or ask others how they handle issues you're grappling with. Whether it's the student who monopolizes Q&A, developing a Perl 6 strategy, or organizing hands-on examples, you can tell us how you handled it or find out how others did. Sorry I couldn't get it for 6:00 as usual, they aren't starting any BOFs before 7:00 this year. -- Peter Scott http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/07/msg572.html Sat, 22 Jul 2006 08:05:55 +0000 OSCON BOF for Perl Trainers by Peter Scott I've scheduled the usual BOF for Perl trainers at the beginning of OSCON to avoid conflict with the more popular events. See http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2006/view/e_sess/9380 which says: Date: Monday, July 24 Time: 7:00pm - 8:00pm Location: Portland 252 Do you teach Perl? Whether you make your entire living running a Perl training business, or whether you've been coopted to bring your workgroup up to speed on Perl, this BOF is for you to meet others who are in the same position. Come and share the lessons you've learned, or ask others how they handle issues you're grappling with. Whether it's the student who monopolizes Q&A, developing a Perl 6 strategy, or organizing hands-on examples, you can tell us how you handled it or find out how others did. Sorry I couldn't get it for 6:00 as usual, they aren't starting any BOFs before 7:00 this year. -- Peter Scott http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/07/msg571.html Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:32:03 +0000 Introduction message by Jacinta Richardson G'day everyone. I know this is a *very* quiet list, but I thought I'd say hi, since I've finally (after 4 or so years) gotten around to subscribing! For those who don't recognise me, I'm jarich from PerlMonks and use.perl, I'm the co-director of Perl Training Australia and I write and maintain most of PTA's training materials. I'm also subscribed to most of the PM groups in the Southern Hemisphere and some of the ones in the North. Mostly I just pester them with invitations to the Open Source Developers' Conference (which I help run), but I do answer questions if they ever get asked. Things I'd like to get out of this mailing list are as follows: * What (publicly accessible) courses still need to be written? There are a great many Intro to Perl courses/pages/slides out there on the web. Just do a search for perlintro.pdf You'll find the perldoc by Kirrily, Netizen's original notes, our notes, and many other people's notes. Obviously we're not missing intro material. Likewise for Intermediate material (references, packages, modules, objects etc). I'm not talking books here, unless the book exists as course materials. I'm wondering what topics people are left learning on their own. For example I love the coffee-stain book, but I'm not sure I could use it as course material. Are there course materials out there somewhere on testing? We have some of our own of course, attached to our Security course. Is there a course on POD, for example? * How much success do other trainers have marketing non-beginner courses? We're finding it *really* hard. We sell heaps of introductory courses and our course attendees love us. But even when we have demand from programmers, both they and we have difficulty selling the advanced training to management. * Is there value in course review, content development (or even course structure development) on this list? I am aware that this list is populated by professional trainers, that we all are doing this not only because we love it, but because it makes us money. I'm not trying to get you to divulge your secrets, I'd just like to throw up some topics for discussion. The above list are things I'd like to know. Perhaps we can share sources of ideas on the first, hints on the second and work together on the third... All the best, J -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/06/msg570.html Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:31:06 +0000 Re: How to get people use forums and mailing lists [was Re: Career Help Urgent!] by Peter Scott On Wed, 17 May 2006 17:33:34 +0300, Gabor Szabo wrote: > On 5/17/06, Smylers <Smylers@stripey.com> wrote: >> So anybody who "helps" you by providing you with the answer is assisting >> you deceive the employer and get a job you are blatantly not qualified >> for. That's downright dishonest. Why on earth do you expect that >> somebody would want to "help" you in this way? > > While I agree with you I would like to note that, unfortunately most > of the people > I see around would not know how to or would fear to ask a question on > a mailing list. That is a valid independent point but in the case of the OP I would have given the same response as Smylers no matter where it was posted. The request was unethical in any context. On the general point, I have written about this in both of my books. Also, the beginners list is the perfect place for nervous posters to get their feet wet. -- Peter Scott http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/05/msg569.html Thu, 18 May 2006 00:33:30 +0000 Re: How to get people use forums and mailing lists [was Re: Career Help Urgent!] by Smylers brian d foy writes: > You really can't blame some poor soul for seeing a mailing list named > "trainers@perl.org" and interpreting that as a place to get help from > Perl trainers. It depends where they saw it, I suppose. This isn't a widely known list, and the places I can think of which mention it state its purpose reasonably clearly -- though I'll concede that for a non-native-English speaker that could be harder to dermine. > Not one of the responses that I saw actaully tried to help the person, > even by simply pointing them to the right place. I would've done if I could think of a right place. But I'm at a loss to think whom somebody trying to cheat on a job application should approach. A priest, perhaps? If the question had been plausible then I'd've suggested PerlMonks; but as it was phrased it would only get shot down there too, so there didn't seem to be any point. > Let's not be assholes to newbies. Sure. But equally I don't want to encourage people to get Perl jobs dishonestly -- especially if it means somebody who actually knows Perl doesn't get the job. Smylers http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/05/msg568.html Thu, 18 May 2006 00:01:23 +0000 Re: How to get people use forums and mailing lists [was Re: Career Help Urgent!] by Tad McClellan On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 07:07:23PM +0200, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: > I also introduced them to comp.lang.perl.* I present a triple-whammy: Usenet as above, plus www.perlmonks.com and lists.perl.org. -- Tad McClellan SGML consulting tadmc@augustmail.com Perl programming Fort Worth, Texas http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/05/msg567.html Wed, 17 May 2006 17:14:48 +0000 Re: How to get people use forums and mailing lists [was Re: Career Help Urgent!] by brian d foy In article <d8a74af10605170733v27abee2ey853f2a86309af2bd@mail.gmail.com>, Gabor Szabo <szabgab@gmail.com> wrote: > This is a separate topic, but in my classes I noticed that a very > large proportion > of the students would not use any forum or mailing list to ask a question. > I guess this is somewhere in the 80-90% range of the students. > I am talking about engineers, QA people etc. I've noted the same thing, and I really don't blame them. Most of the people who frequent a forum are quite rude, elitist, and off-putting. It's a shame to see newbies treated so harshly, and I don't blame them from staying away. You really can't blame some poor soul for seeing a mailing list named "trainers@perl.org" and interpreting that as a place to get help from Perl trainers. There isn't a lot of context in the name. Not one of the responses that I saw actaully tried to help the person, even by simply pointing them to the right place. Instead, the response put on the usual grand show for the regulars. As trainers, we know that people start at point A and it's our job to figure out where they want to go (even if they don't know themselves) then lead them there. We're certainly showing our inability to do that if we can't get over ourselves and simply say "Perhaps the folks over at learn.perl.org can help" and leave it at that. Let's not be assholes to newbies. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.trainers/2006/05/msg566.html Wed, 17 May 2006 16:52:00 +0000