perl.advocacy

perl.advocacy http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/ ... Copyright 1998-2008 perl.org Wed, 08 Oct 2008 06:42:15 +0000 ask@perl.org so that's how you get a story on perlbuzz... (5 messages) Be one of andy lester's friends and whine and bitch about software you didn't even bother to download let alone try out or communicate in any way with the developers before condemning as dead, useless, etc. Want to gee up the perl 5 wiki, "go away and come back when you have an actual story", want to whine and call a project dead because it's last release was 6 months ago on AIM with andy - hey, well that's an editorial. I went to perlbuzz thinking I might find a link to a cool looking talk andy had done about C, basically for "people like schwern", but was surprised to find it's mostly sniping at PHP and Perl. *sigh* A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/10/msg2477.html Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:22:18 +0000 http://www.yapc.org/index.html should contain a list of previous YAPCs (9 messages) Hi. The YAPCs' site -http://www.yapc.org/index.html - should contain a list of previous YAPCs with links. It doesn't at the moment, and it's annoying, because I cannot find the previous YAPCs. Regards, Shlomi Fish ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Best Introductory Programming Language - http://xrl.us/bjn84 Shlomi, so what are you working on? Working on a new wiki about unit testing fortunes in freecell? -- Ran Eilam http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/09/msg2468.html Tue, 09 Sep 2008 03:02:57 +0000 ActiveState perl mailing lists (3 messages) Does anyone know if the ActiveState perl mailing list are still intact? I haven't received any digests in several weeks and looking at the archives online shows no messages since mid-July. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/08/msg2465.html Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:40:50 +0000 White Camel Nomination :: Gabor Szabo (szabgab) (3 messages) Hi! I'd like to nominate Gábor Szabó (the Hugarian-Israeli Perl programmer, not the Jazz musician) for his contributions to the Israeli and Global Perl Communities. See: * http://www.szabgab.com/ * http://search.cpan.org/%7Eszabgab/ Gabor Szabo is responsible for the fact that the Israeli Perl community, and that of other dynamic languages has took off. So far he: 1. Set up an alternate mailing list, which proved to be more active - perl@perl.org.il. 2. Set up a tradition of monthly Israeli Perl meetings, which have turned out to be popular. 3. Organised 3 YAPC::Israel conferences - YAPC::Israel::2003, YAPC::Israel::2004 and YAPC::Israel::2005 and an OSDC::Israel conference - OSDC::Israel::2006. 4. He helped organise the Hungarian Perl Workshops in Hungary, and a Hungarian YAPC. 5. He set up CPAN Forum - http://www.cpanforum.com/ - as a way to get help and ask questions with individual CPAN distributions. Also allows users to tag their modules using delicious-like tags. 6. His commmercial venture - http://www.pti.co.il/ - has been responsible for training material and sessions for Perl and other FOSS technologies, as well as general FOSS development and support. Some of its material has been made available online free-of-charge. 7. He has written many weblog entries, comments, emails and stuff about communal and technical issues. ----------------- Aside from all that, he has done numerous contributions of code, and documentation. Regards, Shlomi Fish http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/06/msg2462.html Wed, 04 Jun 2008 02:41:19 +0000 perl usage page on wiki (1 message) hi all, I've added a stub page giving perl usage metrics on the wiki at : http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?usage_statistics it would be really cool, if anybody could add more links, etc. A -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2461.html Thu, 22 May 2008 08:10:36 +0000 Decentralize, diversify and colonize (5 messages) I've collected many of my thoughts on how Perl needs to move forward. http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2456.html Mon, 05 May 2008 23:05:53 +0000 Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html (53 messages) Hi all! I'd like to start the long task of updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html which has been stopped at 2002. What I'm planning to do is: 1. Make the document validate: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A//history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html 2. Convert to XHTML 1.1. 3. Add more links and news items (that would be the hardest part) in the following years. Also prune some dead links. Note that I have some affiliations. I'll fork the document to a temporary location (with a note). The copyright reads: <<<<<<<<<<<<< The Timeline of Perl and its Culture ©1999-2001 Elaine Ashton. Permission is granted for use of this document in whole or in part for non-commercial purposes. For commercial uses, please contact the author first. Links to this document are welcome after e-mailing the author with the document URL where the link will appear. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if it can be modified while retaining the same licence (I've CCed her to ask her just in case.) If the HTML is generated from something else, it would be useful to know that now, but it doesn't seem that this is the case for it. Perhaps Elaine would like to specify a Creative Commons licence for it. Anyway, if you can think of any events that should be added, please email me in private. Best Regards and thanks in advance, Shlomi Fish ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Best Introductory Programming Language - http://xrl.us/bjn84 The bad thing about hardware is that it sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. The good thing about software is that it's consistent: it always does not work, and it always does not work in exactly the same way. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2401.html Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:51:59 +0000 why isn't there a short / memorable url for the perl 5 and 6 wikis ? (5 messages) Hi All, I've been contributing to both the perl 5 and perl 6 wiki's, but find that they are hardly linked to, the urls aren't exactly easy to remember, and the inner community (let alone the diaspora) seems to not know they exist. Why can't we have a wiki.perl.org ? You can always link to the perl 6 wiki from there (in fact we already do). Andy - can we have an article on perlbuzz about the wiki - it is growing, but slowly and I don't think many perl people outside of the usual suspects even know of it's existence. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2398.html Thu, 17 Apr 2008 01:29:19 +0000 ohloh - are your projects and source code being counted ? (1 message) Hi All, Just a quickie to say, it doesn't take long to add your project and contributions to perl projects on ohloh. Heck, I just added Autodia to googlecode (free svn ftw), and then to ohloh in 10 minutes. If you have any significant projects - make them count, give kudos to the perl (and other) developers who deserve it, review projects. It's all good. Cheers, A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2397.html Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:43:28 +0000 Perl SparkChart (2 messages) I have always been a fan of Quick Reference Guides, (like O'Reilly's Perl Pocket Reference that I lost), cheat sheets, and the like and recently discovered at a Barnes and Nobles, a bunch of "SparkCharts" by SparkNotes.com, including a few computer science topics like JAVA and UNIX. A quick browse of sparknotes.com shows only a limited number of CS topic SparkCharts, but no obvious way to request or suggest new topics for SparkCharts. Might there be one among us equipped as a writer and perl expert and willing to work with SparkNotes to generate a Perl, and perhaps a Perl6, SparkChart? A Perl SparkChart would be one way to support advocacy of perl, methinks. However, perhaps sparknotes would worry that the there would not be enough of a market for that among the perceived main customer, the CS college student. I think sparknotes may have a competitor, as well. Thank you, -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- Wayne A. Haufler Senior Software Engineer (SE) In Space Shuttle Program (SSP) Backup Flight System (BFS) Displays & Controls Requirements Analyst Boeing, NASA Systems, Houston Voice: 281-226-8626 , Cubicle: 3D58 E-mail: wayne.a.haufler@boeing.com Skills : Perl,Unix,C,C++,SQL,QNX,GUI (Disclaimer: The comments and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent the view of Boeing, United Space Alliance, JSC, or NASA.) http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2392.html Mon, 07 Apr 2008 08:48:17 +0000 "NASA Uses Python" (12 messages) Hi all! If you go to http://www.python.org/ you'll see at the top-right corner a picture of an astronaut with the title "NASA uses Python...". Now, to the layman or beginner it might sound more impressive, but let's get our facts straight. Yes, NASA uses Python. However, that doesn't surprise me because NASA, being a large, old, hetrogenous, government organisation, with a huge budget, and many IT needs uses a lot of technologies both new and old. I'm pretty sure they also use Perl (at least that's what Damian Conway implied in an interview with him about Parse::RecDescent). They use Windows, Linux, VMS and many other UNIX flavours and OSes. (There was a Linux-running device on the Columbia). <Pseudonym> NASA still uses Fortran on their VAXen. <Pseudonym> Hell, they still use VAXen. NASA wrote a great deal of their satellite software in Forth. And this JoS item links to an article about the fact that they are still using a 1970's vintage launch-control computer system: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/news/20020918.html So while the fact that NASA uses Python may sound impressive to relatively-clueless people, it is by no means truly indicative of how really good and unique Python is.[1] That's why I'd rather not say something like "NASA Uses Perl" on http://perl-begin.org/ . It may be true, but saying this would be misleading due to the nature of NASA. However, I'd still like to see this removed from the Python homepage, because it's a statement that is misleading to the uninitiated and lacks integrity. I thought about consulting you people on my own turf about the best course of action from here. I could post a rant about it on one of my blogs and hope that reddit, digg, etc. catch it and a flamewar (probably completely tangential to the issue at hand) ensues. Or I could try contacting the Python advocacy list (is there any) or the python.org webmasters. The latter seems a more civil course of action to me, but I may be met with apathy or antagonism. What do you suggest? Regards, Shlomi Fish [1] - I'm not saying that the technologies that NASA use are necessarily crap, just that they use a lot of diverse technologies. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2383.html Sat, 05 Apr 2008 05:53:01 +0000 Re: [pm_groups] Google Summer of Code? (1 message) On 1 Mar 2008, at 19:38, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > correction: Opens March 3rd, deadline March 12th. > > So, we don't have to *scramble*, but we don't have time to lollygag > either :-D Are you on the GSOC mailing list Eric? -- Andy Armstrong, Hexten http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/03/msg2379.html Sat, 01 Mar 2008 11:44:29 +0000 KINDLY GET BACK TO ME FAST (1 message) FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION. ATTENTION: This is to inform you that it have come to the notice board of the Federal Bureau Investigation(FBI), That the sum of $65.5, Million U.S Dollars is coming to your account here in United State Of America. The name we have on the fund show that truely you are the rightfull beneficiary of this funds , That is why we have decided to contact you directly to acquire the proper verifications and proof from you to show that you are the rightful person to receive this fund, because the above mentioned amount is a big amount of money,that is why we want to make sure is a clear and legal money you are about to receive. Be informed that the fund would have hit your Bank account, but right now we have put a hold to it pending the time we carry out our thorough investigation . Note that the fund is in the custody of the Financial Monitoring Unit of the F.B.I right now,but we have ask them not to go from here yet,now a man called Smith Rogers is here in our office with a two boxes loaded with money because we need some proof and verifications from you before releasing. So to this regards you are to reassure and proof to us that what you are about to receive is a legitimate fund by sending to us FBI Identification Record and also Certificate Of Ownership to satisfy to us that the money you are about to receive is legal. You are to forward the documents to us immediately if you have it with you, if you do not have it let us know so that we will direct and inform you where to obtain the document and send to us so that we will ask the Financial Monitoring Unit to immediately go ahead in Crediting your account . This Documents are to be issued to you from the place where the fund was transfer from, so get back to us immediately if you dont have the document so that we will inform you the particular place and what it will take to obtain it in Federal Republic Of Nigeria. An FBI Identification Record and Certificate Of Ownership often referred to as a Criminal History Record or Rap Sheet, is a listing of certain information taken from fingerprint submissions retained by the FBI in connection with arrests and, in some instances, federal employment, naturalization, or military service. If the fingerprints are related to an arrest, the Identification Record includes name of the agency that submitted the fingerprints to the FBI, the date of arrest, the arrest charge, and the disposition of the arrest, if known to the FBI. All arrest data included in an Identification Record is obtained from fingerprint submissions, disposition reports and other reports submitted by agencies having criminal justice responsibilities. The United States Department of Justice Order 556-73 establishes rules and regulations for the subject of an FBI Identification Record to obtain a copy of his or her own Record for review. The FBIs Criminal Justice Information Services (CJIS) Division processes these requests. An individual may request a copy of his or her own FBI Identification Record for personal review or to challenge information on the Record. Other reasons an individual may request a copy of his or her own Identification Record may include international adoption or to satisfy a requirement to live or work in a foreign country (i.e., Certificate Of Ownership, letter of good conduct, criminal history background, etc.) On October 9, 1998, President Clinton signed into law the National Crime Prevention and Privacy Compact (Compact) Act of 1998, establishing an infrastructure by which states can exchange criminal records for noncriminal justice purposes according to the laws of the requesting state, and provide reciprocity among the states to share records without charging each other for the information. The Compact became effective April 28, 1999, after Montana and Georgia became the first two states to ratify it, respectively. To date, 27 states have ratified the Compact. The Compact Council as a national independent authority, works in partnership with criminal history record custodians, end users, and policy makers to regulate and facilitate the sharing the complete, accurate, and timely criminal history record information to noncriminal justice users in order to enhance public safety, welfare and security of Society while recognizing the importance of individual privacy rights. NOTE: We have asked for the above documents to make available the most complete and up-to date records possible for non-criminal justice purposes. If you fail to provide the Documents to us, we will charge you with the FBI and take our proper action against you for not proofing to us the legitimate of the fund you are about to receive. Regards, http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/01/msg2364.html Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:52:06 +0000 Perl "Going the way of the dinosaur" (24 messages) Anyone doing anything to counter this misconception? http://www.nautis.com/2007/08/17/cms-review-bricolage/ Note that blog comments that say, "you're wrong!" are more harmful than helpful. I mean is there a report or something with real data to show otherwise? Thanks, David http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/01/msg2357.html Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:52:44 +0000 What Microsoft (And Linux) Can Learn from Firefox (6 messages) http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/article.php/3718191 Can the Perl community learn somthing form them? Gabor -- Gabor Szabo http://www.szabgab.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/12/msg2351.html Sun, 23 Dec 2007 01:39:15 +0000 Google SOC (etc.) (5 messages) I notice that the Perl Foundation doesn't have any representation on the Google organisation page, which I found a tad surprising. Python is there, so languages are ok, Eclipse is there so programs are ok, no Perl... http://code.google.com/opensource/organizations.html Perhaps having a formatl connection with Google might help us being able to take part in the Summer of Code this year (2008), if there is one. It would be nice if politics, and religious language wars, didn't get in the way of our participation. So my question is: how can we get Perl on that page? -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/12/msg2346.html Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:33:48 +0000 Perl promotional texts (2 messages) Hi, I have setup an AdServer to help us promote various Perl events, the Perl Mongers and Perl in general on web sites: http://adserver.szabgab.com/ There are some general ads (you can see all the currently available ads in the yaml file linked from the main page of the AdServer). As this group of people is more into promotion and advocation I guess you would be able to help me more 1) in getting the ads on many more servers 2) creating ads that are better than those I created 3) creating ads in your native language regards Gabor -- Gabor Szabo http://www.szabgab.com/ Perl Training in Israel http://www.pti.co.il/ Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=82476 http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/11/msg2344.html Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:19:41 +0000 Perl as a second language (3 messages) if we are already talking advocacy, I'd appreciate your help here. I am trying to put together a one day long training for Java/C*/etc... programmers to learn Perl as a second language. I don't want to convert them to use Perl instead of their primary language. This is a decision that need to be made on a higher level in the corporate ladder. It might not even be a good idea. What I would like to teach them is to start using Perl as a helper tool to automate some of their tasks. For this I need some cool examples of how Perl can be used to help them. The problem, that besides the standard system related stuff (eg. log parsing) I don't know what else these people might need. So I would really like to hear what does a Java/C*/etc..programmer with several years of experience need to do to improve his working conditions that he would be better off doing with Perl after just 1 day of training... I already asked more or less the same question on Perlmonks http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=641982 but the responses were lacking extensive examples I can build on. Your input is appreciated. Gabor -- Gabor Szabo http://www.szabgab.com/ Perl Training in Israel http://www.pti.co.il/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/10/msg2338.html Wed, 03 Oct 2007 07:47:49 +0000 Where is the Perl Buzz? (8 messages) Hi all! There is an interesting discussion about Perl here: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.546349.20 Quoting it: <<<<<<<<< For some reasons there are lots of buzz about Ruby, Javascript, Python but not too much about Perl. Why is that? What makes Perl less trendy than those languages? >>>>>>>>> As some people note, Perl is not as new as these languages are, and so has become less trendy and more "well-established". There are other comments too. Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer. -- An Israeli Linuxer http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/10/msg2333.html Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:02:19 +0000 The perl5 wiki (2 messages) Hi, In case you weren't aware the perl foundation now has a wiki for perl 5, it's been growing pretty fast, and is already shaping up nicely. A couple of very quick/easy things you can do for perl advocacy is to a) add more links to useful resources and b) add more perl organisations and case studies. There doesn't seem to be a perl success stories node, so if you have some success stories or pages that link to success stories lying around in your bookmarks or blog you can make a start. Anyway you can find the wiki at http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?perl_5_wiki Cheers, A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/07/msg2331.html Sat, 21 Jul 2007 02:05:26 +0000 testimonial (1 message) Here's Allen Gilson telling his story of his career with computers and how perl was a breath of fresh air. http://allengil.freeshell.org/perl.html -- Greg Matheson Try it, you'll like it. But if you don't do it anyway. --Ian Bicking -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/07/msg2330.html Thu, 05 Jul 2007 04:04:50 +0000 Perl Progressions (6 messages) (apologies to people who've already seen this on p5p) I've been thinking recently about "Perl Progressions". It'd be a (probably) wiki driven site full of things like: Currently: You use regular expressions effectively and understand well what the basic elements do ('.', '()', '[]', '+', '*'). Try this: * use zero width assertions * use non-capturing parens when you don't need to capture matched text * use the 'x' modifier to include whitespace and comments ---- Currently: You have a source formatting style you are happy with. Try this: * integrate Perl::Tidy with your editor and avoid manual reformatting entirely ---- Currently: You use h2xs -X to create a new skeleton module Try this: * investigate the Module::Starter family of modules that are dedicated to this purpose The site would eventually comprise hundreds of 'if this describes you then you might also like to try these things' propositions. My thinking is that a lot of our advocacy efforts focus on bringing new people to Perl but we should probably now be thinking at least as much in terms of retention. Giving people easily digestible nuggets of skill advancement might help. The ethos would be something "do one progression a week until you've done them all - then start writing some of your own" If people think that's a worthwhile idea and I'm not re-inventing some wheel I don't know about I'll set it up. -- Andy Armstrong, hexten.net http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/05/msg2323.html Wed, 09 May 2007 11:01:15 +0000 Hosting and a More Official Status for http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ (19 messages) Hi Ask! Can you give me static HTML hosting for http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ on perl.org? Moreover, I'd like it to gain a more official status: 1. http://begin.perl.org/ 2. Link from the pages of perl.org. 3. Etc. It is currently much better than learn.perl.org and also has a public Subversion repository, which learn.perl.org lacks. Perl-Begin was designed with marketing in mind: http://www.sparkthis.com/2006/02/slides_the_hack.html Which l.p.o currently heavily lacks, not to mention that l.p.o: 1. Lacks essential information like links to online tutorials, IRC channels, etc. 2. One cannot effectively contribute it. (I offered my help to revamp it, but BDFOY said I couldn't). 3. Has an overloaded front with nothing but a list of books. --------------- In any case the purpose of this email is not to criticise learn.perl.org but rather to point that Perl-Begin is a labour of love and that it should gain a more official status, partially because l.p.o is inadequate, and cannot be effectively fixed by an enthusiastic contributor (which is the case for Perl-Begin). Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer. -- An Israeli Linuxer http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/04/msg2304.html Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:35:04 +0000 Some work on http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ (6 messages) Hi all! I recently revamped the look of Perl-Begin: http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ It is based on an OSWD template: http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2933 . I think it looks much more attractive and Web 2.0 now. Note that it isn't displayed correctly in MSIE 6.0, which is a known problem, and hopefully can be resolved somehow. Of course, if you're still using MSIE 6.0 you should see: http://www.shlomifish.org/no-ie/ Here are some things: 1. I've started revamping the content based on the excellent advice in: http://www.sparkthis.com/2006/02/slides_the_hack.html Among else I: 1.a) have a nice image. (The flowers on the top). 1.b) On the front page, have a call for action ("Work with Perl for a living! Learn More.."). 1.c) Want to get some testimonials. Can you give them? They should be phrased in first person ("We"). I know Perl is extensively used by Amazon.com, Six Apart (Live Journal, Movable Type, and Typepad), by VMware (many of the applications in VMware ESX are written in Perl), by Microsoft (part of the build system), and by many others. I think I'll make a list of testimonials put them in JSON format, and display a random one every time a page is loaded. But first I need to have them. 1.d) I should get a "What's in it for me." ---------------- 2. I've added the following paragraphs: On http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ : <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hype? We don't need no stinkin' hype! Perl was probably never hyped. While many people said they liked Perl or that it superior to other languages in some respects, it became popular by its qualities, and being the right tool for the right job at the right time. On the contrary there's a lot of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) flames about Perl. But we don't want any hype, and we don't mind the FUD. Perl is great, we like it, and it's often the right tool for the job. So if you want to learn Perl, welcome aboard! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I'll move it below. In http://perl-begin.berlios.de/learn/get-a-job/ I added the following: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Get a Job Doing Perl "When some people are confonted with a programming problem, they say to themselves, "I know, I'll use Perl!" Now they have two problems. (with apologies to Jamie Zawinski This slight mis-quote, illustrates a point - Perl penetrates bottom-up. A programmer comes to a company, he knows Perl and uses it to write his scripts. When given a task to write an application for which Perl is good, he quickly use Perl to write it quickly. The management is impressed. And next thing you know, there is a lot of Perl code in the organization that needs to be maintained, and more employees are trained in Perl, and start to like it, and the company needs more Perl programmers to replace the ones that moved elsewhere, or to develop more rapidly. As a result Perl has become very popular. Not only that but a lot of open source code was written in it and was made available online. It is used by such very large, very busy, sites as Amazon.com, Slashdot and Live Journal and by countless of smaller sites. Furthermore, it often plays a large part behind the scenes. We need you! Get a job. There are plenty of jobs there looking for good Perl developers. You can find them in: jobs.perl.org jobs.perl.com Many other sites Learn Perl Are you already a programmer, and now needs to learn Perl? Do you have little or any programming experience and want to start programming with Perl? Welcome aboard! Perl is an easy language to get up to speed with, and the more you learn about it the more you discover, and the more your expressive power grows. Furthermore, its richness, psychology, power and availability make it excellent for beginning programmers. To learn Perl see our list of online tutorials or buy a book. Then browse the rest of the site. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've bolded the appropriate keywords. Anyway, I'll appreciate any comments. I'm still working on it. Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer. -- An Israeli Linuxer http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/03/msg2298.html Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:32:53 +0000 Perl Maps on Frappr.com (2 messages) Hi all! I blogged about using Frappr.com for some Perl related maps (not the map {...} @list operation, but actual maps of the world): http://use.perl.org/~Shlomi+Fish/journal/32718 Please add yourself to the appropriate maps and help spread the word. Note that the Vim editor: http://www.vim.org/ Features a "Find Vimmers on Frappr!" prominently on its homepage, so it may be a good idea to add such a link to perl.org, planet.perl.org or some place like that. Note: for better or for worse, Frappr.com requires a working Flash to operate its map feature. Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/03/msg2296.html Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:21:33 +0000 Re: Future Perl development (3 messages) On Thursday 01 March 2007 16:03, Peter Scott wrote: > [Copied to advocacy list in a probably vain attempt.] > > On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:25:24 +0100, demerphq wrote: > > > > This seems like something that should be handled by the donations to > > TPF (or some similar organization) by hiring a professional to do it > > right. Isnt this exactly why we have a donation fund? So that we can > > pay to get the stuff that we arent good at done properly by a > > professional? > > Wow, what he said. I was sharpening my keyboard to make the same comment > when I read this. I've seen a little of how professional fundraisers work > and they are *so* different from your average hacker. Not only do they > possess a charisma for communicating with moneybags that eludes most of > us, but their constant exposure to that work will likely lead them to > ideas that haven't occurred to us. > Hear hear - it's a point that's often overlooked. We're professional programmers for a reason and they're professional fundraisers for a reason. -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ ps. Please resend any bounced or unanswered emails. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/03/msg2294.html Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:24:52 +0000 Topping up the perl skills pool (1 message) Hi all, This is a recurring subject that some of us on london.pm and use.perl have been covering - Perl employers in the UK and especially London seem to have followed the trend of not investing in the skills they need, leading to a glut of 'senior perl' roles and them complain about it being hard to recruit decent Perl people. Of course this is a general thing accross the industry - employers have always complained that they don't have a glut of highly skilled young fresh graduates with years of commercial experience in the newest technologies, and that something needs to be done (by somebody else). I think we all know that the IT industry is notorious for not thinking long term, and especially wanting something for nothing when it comes to recruiting the people they need - rather than train a junior, go to universities and select bright graduates, or take on undergraduate placements, most expect people to pay their way through uni, share a grotty house with half a dozen other equally broke graduates while they work for a less than you'd get as a supervisor in starbucks in a rare junior role, while teaching themselves what they need to know for a few years before they're considered worthy of a job. Anyway... after some repeated discussion and coming to the conclusion that employers won't be contributing to the skills pool any time soon.. a couple of us started bouncing around more constructive ideas and JFDI : http://london.pm.org/pipermail/london.pm/Week-of-Mon-20070212/006512.html Cheers, A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/02/msg2292.html Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:24:51 +0000 Perl 6 PR (3 messages) If you've wanted to help with the Perl community, and specifically Perl 6, but don't know how, this may be just the ticket. A thread on perl5-porters turned into a big discussion of Perl 6 and its perception in the community, and outside of it. Here's the problem. As PR guy for The Perl Foundation, the only thing I get asked about Perl 6 is "When will it be done." I can't give an answer to that, because the development team is not able to give a reasonable estimate. So, we discussed how we can discuss Perl 6 and the benefits it brings to the community, even though we don't have any sort of estimate. Jesse Vincent, Perl 6 project manager, said: -- start Jesse -- Perl 5 is very much alive. There's active development. New things are happening. It's robust and stable. And we're not about to start introducing weird, backwards incompatible changes. Perl 6 isn't ready yet. We're starting to get a pretty good idea what it will feel like and you can play with it today. In fact, many of the new features and ideas developed as part of Perl 6 have become available as CPAN modules today. You can add these features to your own production-ready code as they mature, one by one, as _you're_ ready for them. Perl 6 is being designed to make using them easier, more intuitive and more flexible. And when any one of the several different implementations of Perl 6 is production-ready, you'll be able to use your existing Perl 5 code from within Perl 6. Your existing investment in Perl 5 is not going to be obsoleted when you choose to move to Perl 6. -- end Jesse -- So what are some good things that have come out of Perl 6 already, and are available TODAY in Perl 5? Here's a short list: Pugs::Compiler::Rule Scalar::Defer feature.pm Perl6::Take Perl6::Junction Any others? What are they? And, most importantly, who will help me write posts in the Perl Foundation blog about them? I can help with the writing, but not the tech side of things. xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/02/msg2289.html Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:49:18 +0000 Perl Timeline in need of an update? (1 message) Has anyone got time to update the perl Timeline? http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html It appears to have stopped at 2002, and we're now in 2007...! -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ ps. Please resend any bounced or unanswered emails. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/01/msg2288.html Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:27:09 +0000 Re: Reviving lists.{perl,cpan}.org + advocacy (1 message) On Thursday 25 January 2007 08:40, Michael G Schwern wrote: > Ken Williams wrote: > > How about we take the contents of that page, stick it on a wiki > > somewhere, and let people update it? If the maintainers re-emerge, we > > can just hand it back with the corrections. > > Isn't it about time for wiki.perl.org? > Yes. And another thing... There was a pile of wailing about perl vs. php, waxing and waning etc., not so long ago. I was looking for some LAMP info on a debian site recently, and the only material I came across was php related. It was almost as though perl did not exist when people are considering Linux, Apache, MySQL and P...? There is something not quite right here (IMHO). Perhaps we need to revive some enthusiasm for advocating perl, by not resting on past laurels but by writing some new ones. By contributing new material to the many public wikis, books, magazines, and online reference etc., about our language of choice, too? -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ ps. Please resend any bounced or unanswered emails. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2007/01/msg2287.html Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:18:36 +0000 Perl barred from a programming contest (2 messages) Hi, I remember I once read a story aboput Perl being forbiden in a programmin contest, because it was too easy to use (like the previous year, the winner used Perl and only half of the allocatedtime to write a working solution). I have been looking for references to that event, but could not find it out, any help is welcome. Best regards, olivier http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/11/msg2285.html Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:55:30 +0000 The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners (24 messages) Hi all! When one visits http://www.perl.org/ one sees the following note on the left: <<<<<<< New to Perl? <a href="http://learn.perl.org/">See our Resources for Perl Beginners</a> >>>>>>> Now as I've mentioned before there are several huge problems with learn.perl.org: 1. It hasn't been maintained in several years now. 2. Its front page contains a list of books, most of which are not available online and nothing else. 3. There aren't any links to online tutorials anywhere on the site. 4. There aren't any links to other important online resources (wikis, mailing lists, etc. either. 5. The beginners-workers mailing list is closed for subscribers and has become completely unresponsive. -------- learn.perl.org is also linked from many other places. Now, for the past I've been working on the Perl Beginners' Site ( http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ ). This site suffers from none of the problems I mentioned, and also has: 1. A clean XHTML 1.1+CSS 2.1 design. 2. Based on Latemp - http://web-cpan.berlios.de/latemp/ . 3. Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution License license. I can also make it Public Domain, if the need arises. 4. Full source code is available online: http://perl-begin.berlios.de/source/. 5. It is still actively maintained (albeit recently I found little that I needed to add there, because the site is already good enough.) ------------- Because of the sub-optimal state of learn.perl.org, I'd like to propose that I'll be given the ability to revamp it, using the material from perl-begin. Then I can simply redirect perl-begin to learn.perl.org. But the current situation is unacceptable. If anyone can tell me where I can find the source code for learn.perl.org, or give me a limited access to it, I'll greatly appreciate it. I have enough free time for this and believe this is a worthy goal. I should note that the perl.org admins, did not yet integrate a previous patch I wrote to incorporate a http://www.perl.org/learn/ section instead. (Which I think is a bad idea because it will break a lot of URLs). I don't blame them because they had many hardware failures and other problems to deal with. Since then the Subversion repository that contained the sources for www.perl.org has gone offline, and I can no longer access it without a password. So now my patch is out-of-date and I can no longer write a new one. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/advocacy%40perl.org/msg01816.html For a previous discussion of it. Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/08/msg2262.html Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:50:18 +0000 Re: The Perl Wiki (1 message) On Saturday 08 July 2006 18:34, Eric R. Meyers wrote: > Hi Shlomi, > Hi Eric! I subscribed to foundation-L to avoid bounces. If the incoming emails from it become too overwhelming I will set up a filter, or posssibly instruct mailman not to send me any mails. (so I can send mails, but won't receive any emails that weren't CCed to me.) > On Saturday 08 July 2006 06:26, you wrote: > > > On Friday 07 July 2006 17:47, you wrote: > > > > Personally, I feel that putting the central Perl wiki within > > > > Wikipedia may not be such a good idea. That's because Perl hackers > > > > may wish to deviate somewhat from Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View. > > > > For example, the Perl wiki may have an entry about Python, Ruby, Tcl, > > > > etc. with some criticisms of their approaches of doing things. > > > > > > There is a correct time and a correct place for everything. There are > > > some things that are appropriate to be placed neutrally under the Perl > > > topic within Wikipedia itself, and some are not, so we just need to > > > organize and police things smartly, moderating the content as needed to > > > make it public, while providing external links out to the proper > > > private location, or locations, for the Perl biased expressions to > > > occur. No foul and no problem, I believe. > > > > Right, but this will fragment the Perl central wiki. If people have to > > look in two different places, this would be confusing. I'd rather have > > one wiki and that's it. > > I absolutely agree with you, but all options are kept available to us. I'm > formally removing the incorrect name "Perl-Wikipedia" from this discussion > about "The Perl Wiki," to avoid any further confusion. OK. Good. > > People will be going to two major information resources. They will be > going to Wikipedia to learn about many topics, including Perl, and they > will be going directly to The Perl Wiki for its centralized Perl > information. Right. > I believe that the Perl related topics within Wikipedia will > be a very big part of the total information solution, along with The Perl > Wiki however it is implemented. > Correct. I believe it's impossible to completely eliminate duplicate information. Even Wikipedia alone has a large amount of redundancy, which is naturally expected of an Encyclopedia and similar data sources. > > > I also believe that a truly objective Perl person could legitimately > > > write a factually valid and complete critique about the various > > > programming languages, comparing "their approaches of doing things" > > > without showing a bias toward any particular language, or languages. > > > > True, but see below. > > > > > We just need to be very > > > fair, complete and moderate in what we do for the general public. It's > > > simply a difference between the formality of writing from "Wikipedia's > > > Neutral Point of View" and someone quickly hacking out an expression of > > > their Perl biased opinions in a more private Perl setting. > > > > Yes, but I still believe that a Perl wiki may be somewhat different than > > a Perl section in the wikipedia. > > I completely agree with you, because like you've been doing with your > recent Wikipedia entry about Tom Christiansen, and your Wikibooks project > for Newbies, Actually, my Perl for Newbies series of Presentations is not part of wikibooks. I wrote it before I was aware of wikipedia and possibly before wikibooks existed. It was written using Quad-Pres, which is a sort-of home grown HTML slides generator. Like I said, the text and code in the slides are public domain, so they could be integrated into separate works. Part of them were already reformated into tutorials or howto's as part of http://perlmeme.org/. [1] I have some ideas for a 5th or 6th presentation or perhaps I need to beef up my 4th presentatio, but I'll have to start writing them. One wikibook that I started as an experiment in web-accessible (and to a lesser extent collaborative) writing is: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Optimizing_Code_for_Speed I've wanted to write it for a long time and even prepared an outline: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Optimizing_Code_for_Speed/Outline While I prefer to use DocBook/XML, Subversion and gvim for documents I write, I've started working on this book as a wikibook to see if I find it better for this. If I'm happy with this experiment, I may use it for some of my future essays (but probably not all). > there are "A Lot of Things Perl," including good encyclopedic > or technical information that is best created within Wikipedia or > Wikibooks, and simply referenced by The Perl Wiki as needed to amplify the > local topics or discussions going on in the in everday happenings of The > Perl Wiki. > Right. > The global Perl community has a very good story to tell to the world > through all of the Wikimedia components that are available. You're doing > exactly "The Right Stuff," by utilizing the Wikimedia components to tell > part of the Perl story, by adding a page in Wikipedia to tell the world > about Tom Christiansen's great contributions to Perl, and by writing new > Wikibooks to help bring new people into the Perl community. Indeed. Hack on! Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ 95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the bottom 5%. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/07/msg2255.html Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:15:29 +0000 Re: The Perl Wiki, or Perl-Wikipedia (4 messages) On Saturday 08 July 2006 02:47, Eric R. Meyers wrote: > Hi Shlomi, > > I'm very happy to get your response. You two are the wiki experts, not me. > > On Friday 07 July 2006 17:47, you wrote: > > Personally, I feel that putting the central Perl wiki within Wikipedia > > may not be such a good idea. That's because Perl hackers may wish to > > deviate somewhat from Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View. For example, the > > Perl wiki may have an entry about Python, Ruby, Tcl, etc. with some > > criticisms of their approaches of doing things. > > There is a correct time and a correct place for everything. There are some > things that are appropriate to be placed neutrally under the Perl topic > within Wikipedia itself, and some are not, so we just need to organize and > police things smartly, moderating the content as needed to make it public, > while providing external links out to the proper private location, or > locations, for the Perl biased expressions to occur. No foul and no > problem, I believe. Right, but this will fragment the Perl central wiki. If people have to look in two different places, this would be confusing. I'd rather have one wiki and that's it. > > I also believe that a truly objective Perl person could legitimately write > a factually valid and complete critique about the various programming > languages, comparing "their approaches of doing things" without showing a > bias toward any particular language, or languages. True, but see below. > We just need to be very > fair, complete and moderate in what we do for the general public. It's > simply a difference between the formality of writing from "Wikipedia's > Neutral Point of View" and someone quickly hacking out an expression of > their Perl biased opinions in a more private Perl setting. Yes, but I still believe that a Perl wiki may be somewhat different than a Perl section in the wikipedia. > > I think that the Wikibooks will also be very interesting to Perl people. > Indeed. There's already a beginning of a book there about learning Perl (and possibly some other book). My "Perl for Perl Newbies" lecture series: http://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/Perl/Newbies/ Is released under the CC-Public-Domain, and parts of it or it entirely can be integrated into the Wikipedia or wikibooks. > I still have a lot of research to do with the many other things that I've > learned in the discussion that I've had with the people on foundation-l. > OK. > > As I noted I believe Wikia may be more appropriate for it, because from > > what I understood wikis there may be somewhat biased. Ask Bjorn Hansen > > claimed he would rather wait for Socialtext to release their Open Source > > wiki beta, which he'll set up in the perl.org domain, than to use TWiki > > or MediaWiki. We may wish to be patient, and to use perl.net.au in the > > meantime. > > Angela Beesley, from Wikia, notified me via email yesterday that she has > setup http://perl.wikia.com and a perl-l@wikia.com mailing list. I have > the administrative information to provide to you later. I don't plan to do > anything with these without our mutual agreement. I don't own these, we > do, and I'm always very fair, complete and moderate with people. First of all - thanks. We'll have to see what we do about it in regards to the already exists perl.net.au. Perhaps we can get Ask Bjoern Hansen to point http://mediawiki.perl.org/ (or http://mw.perl.org/ or whatever) at either place. In the meantime, I'll add stuff that I find appropriate to http://perl.net.au/. I've already subscribed to their wiki-wide RSS feed. > > I've no problem with your call for patience, and I was just beginning to do > my own research, asking my own questions and expressing my own ideas. Well, I don't know about the Socialtext wiki and how compatible it is with MediaWiki, but it does sound interesting. I suggest that we don't wait for it to be released and for a central wiki based on it to materialise, and instead start working on http://perl.net.au/. Note that the http://perl.net.au/ admins may wish to move the contents (and history) of the wiki over to http://perl.wikia.com/ in order to relieve the burden of the administration. But it's their decision not mine. Best Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ 95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the bottom 5%. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/07/msg2253.html Sat, 08 Jul 2006 02:22:27 +0000 Wikipedia Entry about Tom Christiansen (1 message) Hi all! I started a wikipedia entry about Tom Christiansen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Christiansen There's not much in it now, since there's still a lot I didn't know about tchrist, so please edit stuff yourself there (preferably with registering first). Things that should be done: 1. Link to this entry from other pages that mention it. 2. Add more information. 3. Add links. 4. Fix missing links. 5. More? Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ 95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the bottom 5%. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/07/msg2252.html Fri, 07 Jul 2006 07:29:13 +0000 Digital Camera - Hot Summer Sale (1 message) Other Products New & Used Laptops Parts & Accessories Imported Carry Bags Replica Watches Domain Registration Web Hosting Web Designing Software Development Real Estate Consultancy Contact Telephone +92-21-4945421, 8375508 Cellular +92-321-2435277 Email mail@quzone.com URL www.quzone.comHot Summer Sale Digital Camera HP Photosmart 215 1.3 Mega Pixel, 2x Digital Zoom, 1.8 inch Color LCD, 128 MB Memory Card, Charger, USB Data Cable Brand New 02 Months Warranty Price Pak Rs.3200/- (Dealers are also welcome) www.QuZone.com This is not a SPAM mail if you do not want to receive mails in future reply with REMOVE in subject field http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/07/msg2250.html Mon, 03 Jul 2006 17:24:31 +0000 Central Wiki for Perl (?) (9 messages) Hi all! I'm aware of several relatively limited-in-scope Perl wikis: 1. Win32 Perl's : http://win32.perl.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - Pretty active so far 2. pound-perl.pm : http://p3m.org/ - seems dead for more than a year. 3. Perl-Begin's - http://perl-begin.berlios.de/Wiki/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page - also very inactive. I've placed some links, tutorials and essays there, but did not update it since. There are also local or ad-hoc wikis for conferences, and local Perl Monger groups, and some of them are active, very active or quite useful, but they don't really account. While I may be invoking Joel's Quarreling Kids Rule here[1], I think a central wiki for Perl may be a good idea, not only as a way to consolidate all these specialised wiki's, but also to be "The Perl Wiki" which everyone will refer to. We can have http://wiki.perl.org/ for easy linking and good Google Juice. Adam Kennedy and I used MediaWiki for win32.perl.org and the Perl-Begin's wikis respectively. It's my favourite wiki engine by far, and it's probably the wiki engine with most wikitext there written in (by property of being used in Wikipedia, and many other wikis). It's written in PHP and requires a MySQL database, but that shouldn't matter much to us: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/12/advocacy.html [2] It is derived from UseModWiki, which is a nice easy-to-install and use wiki written in Perl, which has become relatively unmaintained by its author. UseModWiki has a fork called Oddmuse which should be better. (and is also written in Perl). Now the MediaWiki syntax is backwards compatible with the UseMod/Oddmuse wikis' one, albeit it has many more extensions. I have once installed UseModWiki, but did not try Oddmuse yet. Kwiki is very modular and its code should be very clean, but I personally find the default (and currently only) syntax very limiting and annoying. It is possible to write a better syntax and plug-it in yet, but no-one's did it yet. One can possibly port it from UseModWiki. After talking with many people on #perl's IRC, I know that many of them would like something like that. If we want to use MediaWiki, we could get hosting at Wikia ( http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia ). In fact, I'm considering moving the Perl-Begin wiki there too (unless of course there will be wiki.perl.org where I'll incorporate the Perl Begin content there under the Beginners/ section), because it's hard to maintain more than one MediaWiki instance in Berlios.de. This is assuming people don't want the trouble of admining a wiki on the perl.org wiki. (Which is time consuming due to security upgrades, version upgrades and dealing with spam, as I could tell from admining the various MediaWiki instances on iglu.org.il.). Regards, Shlomi Fish [1] - See: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html Quoting a paragraph or two: <<<<<<< But the idea of unifying the mess of Visual Basic and Windows API programming by creating a completely new, ground-up programming environment with not one, not two, but three languages (or are there four?) is sort of like the idea of getting two quarreling kids to stop arguing by shouting "shut up!" louder than either of them. It only works on TV. In real life when you shout "shut up!" to two people arguing loudly you just create a louder three-way argument. >>>>>>> There's a bit more about Atom and RSS there. [2] - I did receive some heat from the Israeli Pythoneers Group ( http://www.python.org.il/ ) which I helped initiate, for using MediaWiki instead of MoinMoin. One of the Israeli Pythoneers is a MoinMoin developer, and he recommended it. We found two problems in MediaWiki that were better in MoinMoin: 1. On Hebrew Pages the main Hebrew title was left-aligned instead of right-aligned because the entire wiki had English as the default language. This was a relatively minor problem. 2. It was not very possible to have versions of the pages in different languages using the same wiki instance. (Unless you put them under different URLs). This was an annoyance, but I think we ended up having pages with both Hebrew and English in them anyhow. At one point one of the Pythoneers, installed MoinMoin on iglu.org.il in a relatively hacky way and using lots of symlinks. I ended up telling him that since I already have 4 instances of MediaWiki (6 or so now), using the same central directory and configuration file, I did not want to bother to worry about another wiki of a different implementation. This convinced him that they should maintain such a MoinMoin wiki on a different host (or in a MoinMoin provider.) It wasn't set up yet, and I think right now most of them are content with the MediaWiki instance, which isn't seeing too much activity anyway (except some towards meetings). Today I disabled an iglu.org.il domain which only had one old (and probably hole-ridden) instance of PHP-BB... "Sys admin is a job for masochists, but it let you also be sadistic sometimes." Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ 95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the bottom 5%. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/06/msg2246.html Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:09:47 +0000 Subscription Change (1 message) ÿØÿàJFIFHHÿíªPhotoshop 3.08BIMéxHHÚ(ÿáÿáùEG(üHHØ(d'`8BIMíHH8BIMó8BIM 8BIM' 8BIMõH/fflff/ff¡2Z5-8BIMøpÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿèÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿèÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿèÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿè8BIM8BIM8BIM@@8BIM }ÿØÿàJFIFHHÿþ'File written by Adobe Photoshop¨ 4.0ÿîAdobedÿÛ ÿÀ"ÿÝÿÄ? 3!1AQa"q2¡±B#$RÁb34rÑC%Sðáñcs5¢²&DTdEÂ£t6ÒUâeò³ÃÓuãóF'¤´ÄÔäô¥µÅÕåõVfv¦¶ÆÖæö7GWgw§·Ç×ç÷5!1AQaq"2¡±B#ÁRÑð3$bárCScs4ñ%¢²&5ÂÒDT£dEU6teâò³ÃÓuãóF¤´ÄÔäô¥µÅÕåõVfv¦¶ÆÖæö'7GWgw§·ÇÿÚ?ôê>øÿ¾WI²ª_+¤ª_+¤ª_+¤ª_+¤ª_+¤ª_+¤ª_+¤ÿÙ8BIMÿþ'File written by Adobe Photoshop¨ 4.0ÿîAdobedÿÛ ""ÿÀ@ÿÝÈÿÄ¢ s!1AQa"q2¡±B#ÁRÑá3bð$rñ%C4S¢²csÂ5D'£³6TdtÃÒâ& EF¤´VÓU(òãóÄÔäôeu¥µÅÕåõfv¦¶ÆÖæö7GWgw§·Ç×ç÷8HXhx¨¸ÈØèø)9IYiy©¹ÉÙéù*:JZjzªºÊÚêúm!1AQa"q2¡±ðÁÑá#BRbrñ3$4CS%¢c²ÂsÒ5âDT &6E'dtU7ò£³Ã()Óãó¤´ÄÔäôeu¥µÅÕåõFVfv¦¶ÆÖæöGWgw§·Ç×ç÷8HXhx¨¸ÈØèø9IYiy©¹ÉÙéù*:JZjzªºÊÚêúÿÚ?ôßï¿âïù%þì]ûïø»þIb»ùÿ±['ÇýÛôúTÅwóÿb£ûïòÿä+¿ûkoSÇÒ·ÂòO|Rð;þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ïøUßð«¿à1WÀb®ÿÅ]ÿ»þwü*ÿÿÙ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/06/msg2245.html Thu, 29 Jun 2006 10:40:59 +0000 Re: Its time we set the score straight on Perl 5 and Perl 6 anddebunk our own self generated FUD. (12 messages) This part of the thread is probably better as an advocacy discussion. >From: Chip Salzenberg <chip@pobox.com> >The OP complained about Perl's expressive freedom. Take that away and you >don't have Perl any more. In short, he *is* wrong. I am firmly in favor of expressive freedom, but I don't think it's the only thing. There's a tension--not a contradiction--between expression and communication. I'm going to grit my teeth and quote myself on an unrelated subject: "A fair number of bloggers (and poets) write only to express themselves. If the writer is satisfied with the results, there's literally no criticism which can be made of such writing, since it isn't written for anyone but the writer. There's no such thing as bad technique in masturbation--whatever gets you through the night is all right, or alright, or Madeline Albright. I make no judgements. "However, writing which is intended to communicate to even one other human being (hell, this is true of code passed to a computer or commands spoken to a dog) has a larger purpose and is therefore held--rightfully!--to a higher standard." Here's an exchange between Tom (the original poster) and Juerd that I think illustrates the point. Juerd is responding to Tom: To me, being able to write open my $fh, '<', $file or die "$file: $!"; instead of open(my $fh, '<', $file) || die("$file: $!"); is very important. I find the former both easier to write and easier to read. > C does indeed suffer from the same problem to some extent, but at > least all the operators actually mean something different. With perl > this extra nonsense was added specificly to encourage leaving out > parens and leaving all but language lawyers scratching their head. You say that as if leaving out parens is a bad thing. And you probably think it is, but I disagree. That's exactly why it's important to support multiple styles. As long as I can read your code, and you can read mine, why should we both write the same way? I'm much more productive if I can write things in a way that feels right to *me*, and any employer wants their people to be productive, right? <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> First, let me admit that I'd probably write that line like this: open(my $fh, '<', $file) || die "The file $file could not be opened: $!"; The parens around the argument to die adds neither meaning nor ease of comprehension; the parens around the arguments to open do add to ease of comprehension. (I think. It'd be nice to see an actual experiment performed to evaluate my opinion.) Now, whether that's easier for Juerd to read or not matters quite a bit if Juerd is the only person whose effort in reading that line matters. If a couple dozen (or a couple hundred) other people have to read that line, and it takes them on average, oh, ten percent more effort to read Juerd's way of writing it, an employer who wants their _people_ (not the one person writing the line, but everyone who works with it) to be productive will to tell Juerd to spend those two or four extra keystrokes in the interest of greater readability. Please note that I'm not saying "|| XOR or" or "|| AND NOT or" or anything like that (I don't think I _could_ say that three times fast), although I could make an argument for it. What I am saying is that "it's easier for me" is a bogus argument. >If we started "listening" (in the sense you use) to every complaint, pretty >soon we wouldn't have a useful tool any more. I'll get at what I meant by "listening" in a moment, but first: >We'd have a grade-school art >project, with everyone's finger painting up on the wall, and nobody feeling >justified in praising one work over another, no matter how much better one >was than another. Isn't that exactly what having || and or enable in Perl style? "Teacher, I don't like putting parens around my arguments!" "That's okay--here's some '||-out' and a bottle of 'or' paint." "Oooh--shiny!" Now, as to what I meant by listening: I meant listening. I didn't say, "Make every change someone asks for." I didn't say, "Agree with whatever people say." What I did mean was, "Pay attention! Pay attention! I'm talking to you and I hope you're concentrating!" for appropriate values of "I". The language we need to change is not Perl. It's the language we use in talking about Perl. In particular, Perl people need to get rid of that (sigh) chip on their shoulder. (Whereas having Chip on your shoulder could only help you be a better programmer.) I've heard that tone since I first I spent time around more experienced Perl programmers, and I'm still convinced it's one of the reasons neither bottom-up nor top-down Perl advocacy is all that successful. So, let's say something new. Here's a start: "I don't have to prove that I am creative! I don't have to prove that I am creative!" >Some brains are simply not Perl-compatible. (*cough*ESR*cough*) That's why >TMTOWTDI is so great. We can send them off to follow the path of Python or >Ruby or whatever, and they're happy (or they think they are). Meanwhile, we >feel good about ourselves for our open-mindedness. Win-win! :-) Oddly enough, I spent part of the last week browsing books on Python and Ruby in the interest of broadening my horizons. I was about to take them back to the library, having decided they weren't really for me, but this thread has me questioning that decision. It's not a brain mismatch, but a question of cultural survival. At a certain point, the town I lived in no longer had a place for Hippie Johnny. Of course, they had the wrong man--I spell my name J-o-h-n-n-i-e. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/06/msg2233.html Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:38:22 +0000 Limited Stock - Price List - New Laptops & Carry Bags (1 message) QuZoneTelephone : +92-21-4945421, 8375508 Cellular : +92-321-2435277 Email : mail@quzone.com URL : www.quzone.com LIMITED STOCK AVAILABLE NEW LAPTOPS & CARRY BAGS PRICE LIST Brand, Model, Warranty, Price & Make Configuration ACER TravelMate 2420 Condition : NEW BOX PACK Warranty : 01 Year International Warranty Make : Made in China Price : Rs.44,000/-Intel® Celeron ® M Processor 380 ( Centrino 1.60 GHz, 1MB L2 Cache, 400 MHz FSB ) supporting Enhanced Intel SpeedStep ® Technology, 40 GB Hard Disk, 256 MB RAM, COMBO Drive , LAN, Modem, USB, Integrated Microphone and Stereo Speakers, Microsoft® DirectSound® and Sound Blaster® Pro compatibility, 14.1" WXGA (1280 x 800) TFT LCD, Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 900 Video Controller, NO OPERATING SYSTEM FREE SUMDEX LEATHER CARRY BAG HP NX6110 Condition : NEW BOX PACK Warranty : 01 Year International Warranty Make : Made in China Price : Rs.56,500/-Intel® Pentium® M Processor 740 ( Centrino 1.73 GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 533 MHz FSB ) supporting Enhanced Intel SpeedStep ® Technology, 40 GB Hard Disk, 512 MB RAM, COMBO Drive , LAN, Modem, USB, WiFi , Built in Stereo Speakers, 15" XGA Display, Memory Stick Pro and High Speed Data Transfer Compatible, Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional Edition with Service Pack 2.0 FREE SUMDEX LEATHER CARRY BAG DELL Inspiron 1300 Condition : NEW BOX PACK Warranty : 01 Year International Warranty Make : Made in Malaysia Price : Rs.58,000/-Intel® Pentium® M Processor 735 ( Centrino 1.70 GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 400 MHz FSB ) supporting Enhanced Intel SpeedStep ® Technology, 60 GB Hard Disk, 512 MB RAM, DVD +/- RW Drive, LAN, Modem, USB, WiFi, Built in Stereo Speakers, 14.1" WXGA LCD + TrueLife (1280 x 800), Express Card Slot, Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 915GM/910GML Video Controller, Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition with Service Pack 2.0 FREE SUMDEX LEATHER CARRY BAG DELL XPS M140 Condition : NEW BOX PACK Warranty : 01 Year International Warranty Make : Made in Malaysia Price : Rs.58,000/-Intel® Pentium® M Processor 740 ( Centrino 1.73 GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 533 MHz FSB ) supporting Enhanced Intel SpeedStep ® Technology, 60 GB Hard Disk, 512 MB DDR2 RAM, COMBO Drive , LAN, Modem, USB, WiFi , Built in Stereo Speakers, 14.1" WXGA LCD + TrueLife (1280 x 800), Express Card Slot, Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 915GM Video Controller, Microsoft® Windows® XP Media Center Edition FREE SUMDEX LEATHER CARRY BAG SONY VAIO FJ 170B/P (Super Slim Series with Built in Camera) Condition : NEW BOX PACK Warranty : 01 Year International Warranty Make : Made in China Price : Rs.90,000/-Intel® Pentium® M Processor 740 ( Centrino 1.73 GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 533 MHz FSB ) , supporting Enhanced Intel SpeedStep® Technology, 100 GB Hard Disk, 512 MB RAM, DVD +/- RW Drive, Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 900 with 128 MB max. shared with Main Memory, LAN, Modem, USB, WiFi, Built in Stereo Speakers, 14.1" WXGA X-Black Clear Bright Screen, Built in MOTION EYE Digital Camera with Motion Picture Function , Memory Stick Reader, Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional Edition with Service Pack 2.0 FREE CARRY BAG CARRY BAGS Brand Material Size ColorPrice IBM Mini Bag (used) Leather14 Black Rs.695/- Dell, Sony & HPLeather14 Black Rs.1095/- Toshiba & HP Polyester Nylon 15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.1795/- Monza (Italy)Polyester Nylon 15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.1995/- Sumdex Leather15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.2395/- Mont Blanc Leather15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.2395/- Roncato Multi Purpose Bag (for Ladies) Polyester Nylon 14 Screen Black Rs.2395/- Sonada Slim Brief Case for Laptops Fiber Glass & Steel 15.4" Wide Screen SilverRs.2495/- Mont Blanc (with Upper Flap) Leather14 Screen 1) Black 2) Brown Rs.2895/- Mont Blanc (with Upper Lock) Leather14 Screen 1) Black 2) BrownRs.2995/- Georgio Armani (with Upper Flap) Leather15.4" Wide Screen BrownRs.3495/- Top Best Polyester Nylon with Leather Stripping 15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.3495/- Sonada (with Upper Flap) Leather15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.3995/- Pierre Cardin Polyester Nylon 15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.4495/- Pierre Cardin (Soft Bag) Polyester Nylon 17 Wide Screen Green Rs.4495/- Sumdex Alti-Pac (Unisex) Polyester Nylon 15.4 Wide Screen Multi Color Rs.4495/- Dicota Ultra Case S (Air Cells Padded) Leather15.4 Wide Screen Black Rs.6895/- SONY VAIO Genuine Bag (Soft Bag) Polyester Nylon 15.4 Wide ScreenMulti Color Rs.7850/- This is not a SPAM mail, if you do not want to receive mails from us in future just reply this email with REMOVE / UNSUBSCRIBE in subject field. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2006/06/msg2232.html Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:49:05 +0000