perl.advocacy

perl.advocacy http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/ ... Copyright 1998-2008 perl.org Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:57:08 +0000 ask@perl.org Re: ActiveState perl mailing lists by Phil Richcreek Gisle, I heard from Jeff at ActiveState. There's been a hardware problem that was crippling the mailing lists feeds. He said it has been fixed. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: Gisle Aas To: Phil Richcreek Cc: advocacy@perl.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:50 AM Subject: Re: ActiveState perl mailing lists I agree it's too quiet even if it's summer. I'll check it out. --Gisle On Aug 4, 2008, at 18:40, Phil Richcreek wrote: Does anyone know if the ActiveState perl mailing list are still intact? I haven't received any digests in several weeks and looking at the archives online shows no messages since mid-July. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/08/msg2467.html Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:55:26 +0000 Re: ActiveState perl mailing lists by Gisle Aas I agree it's too quiet even if it's summer. I'll check it out. --Gisle On Aug 4, 2008, at 18:40, Phil Richcreek wrote: > Does anyone know if the ActiveState perl mailing list are still > intact? I haven't received any digests in several weeks and looking > at the archives online shows no messages since mid-July. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/08/msg2466.html Tue, 05 Aug 2008 02:50:56 +0000 ActiveState perl mailing lists by Phil Richcreek Does anyone know if the ActiveState perl mailing list are still intact? I haven't received any digests in several weeks and looking at the archives online shows no messages since mid-July. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/08/msg2465.html Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:40:50 +0000 Re: White Camel Nomination :: Gabor Szabo (szabgab) by Richard Foley On Tuesday 03 June 2008 22:48:47 Shlomi Fish wrote: > Hi! > > I'd like to nominate GÃ¡bor SzabÃ³ (the Hugarian-Israeli Perl programmer, not > the Jazz musician) for his contributions to the Israeli and Global Perl > Communities. > You forgot to mention his perl debugger work too. http://debugger.perl.org/ I second, or third, or whatever, his nomination - and with enthusiasm :-) -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/06/msg2464.html Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:47:36 +0000 Re: White Camel Nomination :: Gabor Szabo (szabgab) by Andy Armstrong On 3 Jun 2008, at 21:48, Shlomi Fish wrote: > I'd like to nominate Gábor Szabó (the Hugarian-Israeli Perl > programmer, not > the Jazz musician) for his contributions to the Israeli and Global > Perl > Communities. I'm sure I don't have voting rights - but if I did Gabor would certainly get my vote. I'd characterise him as a quiet whirlwind; he doesn't make a fuss but he certainly makes a difference. -- Andy Armstrong, Hexten http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/06/msg2463.html Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:46:52 +0000 White Camel Nomination :: Gabor Szabo (szabgab) by Shlomi Fish Hi! I'd like to nominate Gábor Szabó (the Hugarian-Israeli Perl programmer, not the Jazz musician) for his contributions to the Israeli and Global Perl Communities. See: * http://www.szabgab.com/ * http://search.cpan.org/%7Eszabgab/ Gabor Szabo is responsible for the fact that the Israeli Perl community, and that of other dynamic languages has took off. So far he: 1. Set up an alternate mailing list, which proved to be more active - perl@perl.org.il. 2. Set up a tradition of monthly Israeli Perl meetings, which have turned out to be popular. 3. Organised 3 YAPC::Israel conferences - YAPC::Israel::2003, YAPC::Israel::2004 and YAPC::Israel::2005 and an OSDC::Israel conference - OSDC::Israel::2006. 4. He helped organise the Hungarian Perl Workshops in Hungary, and a Hungarian YAPC. 5. He set up CPAN Forum - http://www.cpanforum.com/ - as a way to get help and ask questions with individual CPAN distributions. Also allows users to tag their modules using delicious-like tags. 6. His commmercial venture - http://www.pti.co.il/ - has been responsible for training material and sessions for Perl and other FOSS technologies, as well as general FOSS development and support. Some of its material has been made available online free-of-charge. 7. He has written many weblog entries, comments, emails and stuff about communal and technical issues. ----------------- Aside from all that, he has done numerous contributions of code, and documentation. Regards, Shlomi Fish http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/06/msg2462.html Wed, 04 Jun 2008 02:41:19 +0000 perl usage page on wiki by Aaron Trevena hi all, I've added a stub page giving perl usage metrics on the wiki at : http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?usage_statistics it would be really cool, if anybody could add more links, etc. A -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2461.html Thu, 22 May 2008 08:10:36 +0000 RE: Decentralize, diversify and colonize by Haufler, Wayne A One idea is to bundle a package of tools and example scripts much like what used to be called KPL for Kids Programming Language. by Microsoft, now called Phrogram, I think. Making Perl more accessible and fun for newbies, and kids. One of the comments mentioned developing more Games with Perl. One of my pipe dreams is to be able to use Perl, instead of or as well as Python, to program and control Blender 3D and its game engine. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- Wayne A. Haufler Senior Software Engineer (SE) In Space Shuttle Program (SSP) Backup Flight System (BFS) Displays & Controls Requirements Analyst Boeing, NASA Systems, Houston Voice: 281-226-8626 , Cubicle: 3D58 E-mail: wayne.a.haufler@boeing.com Skills : Perl,Unix,C,C++,SQL,QNX,GUI (Disclaimer: The comments and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent the view of Boeing, United Space Alliance, JSC, or NASA.) -----Original Message----- From: Henning Michael Møller Just [mailto:henning.just@datagraf.dk] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:30 AM To: Andy Lester; advocacy@perl.org Subject: RE: Decentralize, diversify and colonize An intelligent collection of thoughts, definitely. The "colonize" section reminded me of something that I heard at work: "Well, we need to continue using Perl, otherwise we'd be f*****!" I know that's viewing the power of Perl from the other side, but with a small development department you really can't have a better tool than the Perl programming language. That's my 50 ører (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98re ;-) /Henning -----Original Message----- From: Andy Lester [mailto:andy@petdance.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:06 AM To: advocacy@perl.org Subject: Decentralize, diversify and colonize I've collected many of my thoughts on how Perl needs to move forward. http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2460.html Tue, 06 May 2008 17:58:25 +0000 RE: Decentralize, diversify and colonize by Henning Michael Møller Just An intelligent collection of thoughts, definitely. The "colonize" section reminded me of something that I heard at work: "Well, we need to continue using Perl, otherwise we'd be f*****!" I know that's viewing the power of Perl from the other side, but with a small development department you really can't have a better tool than the Perl programming language. That's my 50 ører (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98re ;-) /Henning -----Original Message----- From: Andy Lester [mailto:andy@petdance.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:06 AM To: advocacy@perl.org Subject: Decentralize, diversify and colonize I've collected many of my thoughts on how Perl needs to move forward. http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2459.html Tue, 06 May 2008 05:20:35 +0000 Re: Decentralize, diversify and colonize by Aaron Trevena 2008/5/6 Andy Lester <andy@petdance.com>: > I've collected many of my thoughts on how Perl needs to move forward. > > http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html Some quite good points on improving the visibility of your perl projects.. I'd add some more points : * You don't need to use bugtracking on googlecode instead of rt.cpan - you can remove the tab and link to rt.cpan as I've done for the autodia projects. * Adding your project to, or using Ohloh means that every line of code you commit, or project you add to your stack, or review proves the vitality of the project and perl * It's never either or - sourceforge, googlecode, etc provide bugtracking, mailing lists, etc but you don't have to use any or all of them - cherry pick what you need. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2458.html Tue, 06 May 2008 03:06:03 +0000 Re: Decentralize, diversify and colonize by Richard Foley On Tuesday 06 May 2008 08:05:44 Andy Lester wrote: > http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html > Interesting article, Andy, and yes: "All advertising is good advertising!" -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2457.html Mon, 05 May 2008 23:26:24 +0000 Decentralize, diversify and colonize by Andy Lester I've collected many of my thoughts on how Perl needs to move forward. http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2456.html Mon, 05 May 2008 23:05:53 +0000 Re: why isn't there a short / memorable url for the perl 5 and 6 wikis ? by Andy Lester On May 2, 2008, at 4:18 AM, Aaron Trevena wrote: > Then we can pick some arbitary milestone and make a story out of that > - there is next to nil mention or awareness of the perl 5 wiki, and a > story on perlbuzz highlighting both it and a short funky new > wiki.perl.org domain would be worthwhile. I think there are already > some highlights on it worth mentioning. Or for that matter, the new history page that people have been working on. http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?history -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2455.html Fri, 02 May 2008 07:12:50 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Andy Lester >>> >> This sort of thing is classic sexism. You're making a big deal out of >> someone's sex. > > No, I didn't. See below. > Shlomi, the key is that calling out someone's differences often makes the person feel uncomfortable. "Hey, look, a female" doesn't do anything positive, and indeed probably makes the person feel awkward. The key to equality is to treat the people equally. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2454.html Fri, 02 May 2008 07:06:44 +0000 Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html by Aaron Trevena 2008/4/28 Jim Brandt <cbrandt@buffalo.edu>: > > Elaine Ashton wrote: > > > > I'll welcome updates. > > > > I'll welcome fixed links and html. > > > > I'll welcome new content. > > > > > > brian and chromatic have posted a few 'Year in Review' type nodes to > Perlmonks and oreillynet that would likely be helpful if someone were to > work on some updates. Here's the link to 2007, and it contains links to 2006 > and 2005: > > http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=659849 > > The 2007 version is extensive and if I recall correctly, a version was > published in The Perl Review as well. So Shlomi, Chris - have you emailed useful updates to elaine yet ? A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2453.html Fri, 02 May 2008 02:22:09 +0000 Re: why isn't there a short / memorable url for the perl 5 and 6 wikis ? by Aaron Trevena 2008/4/17 Andy Lester <andy@petdance.com>: > > On Apr 17, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Aaron Trevena wrote: > > > Not sure what we can say other than "hey we have a wiki, it's already > > got a lot of useful content, but could do with more" and "oh we have a > > funky url now : wiki.perl.org" - the latter after sorting out said > > subdomain ;) > > > > Maybe worth poking whoever is running the wiki and ask them for some > > highlights, steal some of the news from the front page and "most > > wanted" pages ? > > > > See, that's why we don't have an article about the wiki. :-) If there's > not much to say, then there's not much to say. Then we can pick some arbitary milestone and make a story out of that - there is next to nil mention or awareness of the perl 5 wiki, and a story on perlbuzz highlighting both it and a short funky new wiki.perl.org domain would be worthwhile. I think there are already some highlights on it worth mentioning. Milestone could be 1000 entries, 10000 revisions 100,000 words, 6 months of usage, anything. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2452.html Fri, 02 May 2008 02:18:44 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updatinghttp://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Dave Cross Quoting Shlomi Fish <shlomif@iglu.org.il>: > Now arguably, "chick" is a bit derogatory. "Arguably"! "A bit"!! Either you're practising the art of British understatement, or you really don't know what you're talking about. Dave... http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2451.html Fri, 02 May 2008 01:12:41 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Shlomi Fish Hi Dave! Thanks for your email. I didn't explain myself properly. See below for my response. On Thursday 01 May 2008, Dave Rolsky wrote: > On Thu, 1 May 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote: > > I met on IRC[1], or for saying "There's a girl on #perl", instead of > > "there's a programmer on #perl" or whatever. > > This sort of thing is classic sexism. You're making a big deal out of > someone's sex. No, I didn't. See below. > > Imagine if every time you logged on to IRC someone got all excited and > said "There's a Jew on #perl". Would that make you feel comfortable? Would > you want to come back? Would it make you feel included in the group? It won't but OTOH, what I said was on a different channel saying (and I quote): {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ there's a new chick in Perl [= #perl - my typo] called geekette who learned Perl from "Perl in 21 Days" }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Now arguably, "chick" is a bit derogatory. Anyway, I was told that I should have said that "there's a new programmer in #perl". This is like saying "A guy I work with", or "A girl I work with" (or "a man" or "a woman"), instead of saying "My co-worker". This is a perfectly natural way to say it, while saying "A Jew I know from work" is unnatural, while saying "A Jewish guy I know from work" is. OTOH, one of the women on the channel where I said it said I should have said "a programmer" instead of "a chick". I never said "There's a girl on #perl" on #perl, or asked a girl if she's "hot", etc. I'm trying to be a gentleman. (Though it doesn't always work.) > > Part of creating a welcoming environment for any minority group is to not > make a big fucking deal out them being a minority! Engage them as > individuals, not as representatives of some group you're not part of. > Right. Of course, I don't mind it when someone asks me questions about my life as a Jewish Israeli, and think many people like to answer my questions about their lives in different countries and conditions. It's part of the fun of IRC. Regards, Shlomi Fish ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Parody on "The Fountainhead" - http://xrl.us/bjria The bad thing about hardware is that it sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. The good thing about software is that it's consistent: it always does not work, and it always does not work in exactly the same way. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2450.html Thu, 01 May 2008 23:36:12 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html] by Dave Rolsky On Thu, 1 May 2008, Elaine Ashton wrote: > Negative version? I just remembered the quote from David Allan Coe. Hey, I'm > a big fan of the guy who wrote the song "Take this job and shove it." What, > don't I get points for thinking the original could have easily been from Mr. > Pry it from my cold dead hands Heston? :D Further research does find the Coe version, indeed. As far as crediting Heston, I think the original version does have some merit. It wasn't like the civil rights movement simple asked to be treated equally. They demanded it. Shlomi's use was way off, I will agree. Of course, this is all getting _way way way_ off-topic, and clearly my points assignment should be taken rather tongue-in-cheek. -dave /*========================== VegGuide.Org Your guide to all that's veg ==========================*/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2449.html Thu, 01 May 2008 16:22:22 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updatinghttp://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Elaine Ashton On 01 May, 2008, at 17:45, Dave Rolsky wrote: > > You all lose points. Shlomi loses for quoting the tagline to a > Spielberg film as if it were deep philosophy. Elaine loses for > managing to find the negative version, when most net sources seem > to go with the positive. Negative version? I just remembered the quote from David Allan Coe. Hey, I'm a big fan of the guy who wrote the song "Take this job and shove it." What, don't I get points for thinking the original could have easily been from Mr. Pry it from my cold dead hands Heston? :D e. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2448.html Thu, 01 May 2008 15:26:36 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html] by Dave Rolsky On Thu, 1 May 2008, Elaine Ashton wrote: > LOL. I was going to say that it must have been Charlton Heston, but then > remembered the real quote which is: > > "Freedom cannot be given... It can only be taken away." There seem to be a number of versions of this quote on the net. Some match the meaning above, but most others are more like "Freedom cannot be given, it must be taken". Apparently, this is the tagline for the film Amistad (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118607/). According to IMDB, that tagline is "Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." You all lose points. Shlomi loses for quoting the tagline to a Spielberg film as if it were deep philosophy. Elaine loses for managing to find the negative version, when most net sources seem to go with the positive. -dave /*========================== VegGuide.Org Your guide to all that's veg ==========================*/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2447.html Thu, 01 May 2008 14:46:05 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updatinghttp://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Elaine Ashton "I heard somewhere that freedom cannot be given, and it must be taken and fought for." LOL. I was going to say that it must have been Charlton Heston, but then remembered the real quote which is: "Freedom cannot be given... It can only be taken away." I'll merely wait and see just how things will change once all the little female perl spawn reach the age where they start asking difficult questions. :) e. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2446.html Thu, 01 May 2008 10:13:16 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html] by Dave Rolsky On Thu, 1 May 2008, Andy Lester wrote: >> Imagine if every time you logged on to IRC someone got all excited and said >> "There's a Jew on #perl". Would that make you feel comfortable? Would you >> want to come back? Would it make you feel included in the group? > > This analogy is beautiful. It also points my annoyance with the entire > topic. We never talk about "Jews in Perl" or "Jews in open source". > > "How can we make Perl more inviting to Jews?" This would be a reasonable question if for some reason there was a noticeable disparity between Jews in Perl vs Jews in programming or Jews in open source. This disparity does exist with women and open source, I think. The answer to the question is simple, at a certain level. Simply put, we need to make sure that the Perl community is a comfortable place for women (and Jews and everyone else). Part of that means not making a big deal of their presence. However, overall, I think it's less about doing specific things to cater to women, and doing more to simply be less repellent (to everyone). That's asking a lot of #perl, of course. Outside of #perl, I think the Perl community as a whole does a decent job of being less repellent, and has been doing a good job for the past few years. There are some exceptions, but overall I think things have improved in the time I've been involved in Perl (9 years or so). -dave /*========================== VegGuide.Org Your guide to all that's veg ==========================*/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2445.html Thu, 01 May 2008 10:06:13 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Andy Lester On May 1, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Dave Rolsky wrote: > Imagine if every time you logged on to IRC someone got all excited > and said "There's a Jew on #perl". Would that make you feel > comfortable? Would you want to come back? Would it make you feel > included in the group? This analogy is beautiful. It also points my annoyance with the entire topic. We never talk about "Jews in Perl" or "Jews in open source". "How can we make Perl more inviting to Jews?" xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2444.html Thu, 01 May 2008 09:46:26 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html] by Dave Rolsky On Thu, 1 May 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote: > I met on IRC[1], or for saying "There's a girl on #perl", instead of "there's > a programmer on #perl" or whatever. This sort of thing is classic sexism. You're making a big deal out of someone's sex. Imagine if every time you logged on to IRC someone got all excited and said "There's a Jew on #perl". Would that make you feel comfortable? Would you want to come back? Would it make you feel included in the group? Part of creating a welcoming environment for any minority group is to not make a big fucking deal out them being a minority! Engage them as individuals, not as representatives of some group you're not part of. -dave /*========================== VegGuide.Org Your guide to all that's veg ==========================*/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/05/msg2443.html Thu, 01 May 2008 08:41:25 +0000 Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Richard Foley On Thursday 01 May 2008 08:14:21 Shlomi Fish wrote: > > I heard somewhere that freedom cannot be given, and it must be taken and > fought for. > I don't know the origin of the phrase, but the spirit is historically correct, and probably always will be. -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2442.html Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:39:38 +0000 Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ] by Shlomi Fish On Monday 28 April 2008, Elaine Ashton wrote: > > Sure, I can see what you mean, and that sounds very altruistic, to > > keep > > Elaine's material 'on file' so to speak. It's a highly defensible > > position, > > on the face of it, but in reality, we all know what being quietly > > side-lined > > means. > > History repeats itself time and time again. You get the people you > deserve by the silent majority remaining silent. Just like all the > politics inside Parrot. The silent remain silent and things continue > on just as they did in the days of P5P. For years many have > plaintively commented as to why there are so few women in perl, > especially when compared to other projects, and you need only look to > yourselves. > I'd like to comment on the "Why there are few women in Perl" remark. It may be a bit tactless to bring this in this context, like a pushy women-lib-fighter who keeps bringing up the subject. (This is a style-over-substance remark) But I'd like to address it anyway. First of all I should note that I know quite a few female programmers here in Israel, in real-life. Most or all of them seem intelligent and impressive, and they most likely make good programmers. I also know some other female Perl programmers online. As for how much they contribute back to the community, that is probably less than ideal. It is well-known that in most development environments what happens is that most of the people just use it and not contribute back, while the amount of active contributers is much smaller. This is similar to the fact that most of the code in the world has no sale value, (or otherwise isn't sold) and only a very small percent of it is open-source/shareware/freeware/proprietary/etc. (see http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/magic-cauldron/ar01s03.html ). Since there are fewer women, there are also fewer female contributers. However, despite all that, I still know of several female Perl developers who contribute in various ways. There's http://search.cpan.org/~elizabeth/ who wrote many useful CPAN modules. There's imacat, who is an active CPAN tester. I know of at least three female Australians who are doing advocacy and organisation. And in Israel, we have a few FOSS women developers who are active in mailing lists, other online mediums, and in giving presentations. There are also Allison Randal and Ann Barcomb who have done a commendable contribution to Perl. Do we have enough female contriubters? No. Can we make contributing to Perl more attractive to women? Sure. But I don't think we should feel that we are particularly bad now, in comparison to other projects in this respect. I don't think I know of any projects who sport 50% (or more) female developers. In regards to http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ - while it is a fine and enlightening document, I don't think that after women have become more dominant in many different fields of experience, they should suddenly encounter particular problems when it comes to taking part in FOSS projects. Obviously, most of the problems described in the "HOWTO" were prevalent previously (and to a large extent still are), and women had to overcome them and deal with them. I am most certainly not a sexist person, I highly respect and admire some historical and present women (some of which I personally know) and would love to see more female FOSS developers. However, I also received some heat from women-lib-pedants, regarding perfectly innocent things I said, such as using "girls" instead of "women", or expressing interest in some females that I met on IRC[1], or for saying "There's a girl on #perl", instead of "there's a programmer on #perl" or whatever. {{{{{{ [1] - for the record I also express interest in many male people I met there. }}}}}} It's perfectly natural for a guy to do that even if he isn't a chauvinist, so naturally I feel a bit frustrated about it. And if I feel frustrated, you can imagine how some people who are somewhat more offensive than I would feel. Like it or not, there would always be "guy talk" and "sex talk", and some flirting, etc. even if there are 50% (or more) women around. But it's time for a few bold girls to face the heat (with enough knowledge and determination), persist in this "female-alienating" society and pave the road for more of them to join. I heard somewhere that freedom cannot be given, and it must be taken and fought for. Regards, Shlomi Fish P.S: while I was studying in http://www.technion.ac.il/ , I was told that there were then 40% female students there (possibly more now). I recall visiting the Computer Science building and seeing ~50% girls there (possibly less or possibly more). In my department - Electrical Engineering - there were very few female students back when I studied - 10% or so, possibly because it is considered a very hard and demanding specialisation. There are many girls in the Industrial and Management Engineering department, which is notorious for being the easiest department in the Technion. In any case, it is possible that with this proliferation of females there (and in other schools and universities), we'll see more of them contributing to FOSS projects. In a previous workplace of mine (a start-up developing 10 Gbps Ethernet NICs), there were several female Electrical Engineers, which seemed very impressive to me. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Understand what Open Source is - http://xrl.us/bjn82 The bad thing about hardware is that it sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. The good thing about software is that it's consistent: it always does not work, and it always does not work in exactly the same way. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2441.html Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:14:40 +0000 Re: There is no cabal by Peter Scott On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:41:00 -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > What sort of power are you ascribing to these unnamed "people-in- > power"? There is no power. There is no Perl Cabal [...] Oh, I beg to differ: http://web.archive.org/web/20030716002311/perlcabal.com/lwall.html :-) -- Peter Scott http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2440.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:48:56 +0000 Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html by Jim Brandt Elaine Ashton wrote: > I'll welcome updates. > > I'll welcome fixed links and html. > > I'll welcome new content. > brian and chromatic have posted a few 'Year in Review' type nodes to Perlmonks and oreillynet that would likely be helpful if someone were to work on some updates. Here's the link to 2007, and it contains links to 2006 and 2005: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=659849 The 2007 version is extensive and if I recall correctly, a version was published in The Perl Review as well. -- Jim Brandt The Perl Foundation email: cbrandt@perlfoundation.org http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2439.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:46:39 +0000 [JOKE] Re: There is no cabal by Shlomi Fish On Monday 28 April 2008, Andy Lester wrote: > > I wasn't offered my own new > > wiki-thread though, maybe I didn't ask the right person... > > What do you mean "offered my own new wiki-thread"? You don't get > offered something on a wiki. You go and start it yourself. > > > I realise that you had not intended to make this much of an issue > > out it, or > > to trample on another (if aged) project. As I see it, it's happened > > that > > way, because of choices people-in-power have made as to how to react > > to > > someone who disagrees with them. And particularly to those people > > who are > > outside of the current magic-circle. > > What sort of power are you ascribing to these unnamed "people-in- > power"? There is no power. There is no Perl Cabal who are allowed to > do things on a wiki, and others who are not. Correction: there is no IGLU Cabal! See: http://www.hackers.org.il/mediawiki/index.php/The_mysterious_IGLU_Cabal Enjoy! (IGLU is the "Israeli Group of Linux Users") Regards, Shlomi Fish (Sorry Andy! Could not resist.) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Why I Love Perl - http://xrl.us/bjn88 The bad thing about hardware is that it sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. The good thing about software is that it's consistent: it always does not work, and it always does not work in exactly the same way. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2438.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0000 Re: There is no cabal by Alan > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 06:49:16PM +0200, Richard Foley wrote: >> On Monday 28 April 2008 18:41:00 Andy Lester wrote: >> > >> > There is no Perl Cabal >> > >> There usually is one, somewhere, if you look closely enough... >> > > Only one? The question is whether the cabal is an array or a scalar. Personally I think it is a hash. (Or involves hash...) http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2437.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:58:08 +0000 Re: There is no cabal by Philippe Bruhat On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 06:49:16PM +0200, Richard Foley wrote: > On Monday 28 April 2008 18:41:00 Andy Lester wrote: > > > > There is no Perl Cabal > > > There usually is one, somewhere, if you look closely enough... > Only one? -- Philippe Bruhat (BooK) In war, the only winners are those who sell the weapons. (Moral from Groo #3 (Image)) http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2436.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:54:31 +0000 Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html by Elaine Ashton On 28 Apr, 2008, at 12:22, Richard Foley wrote: > Well, I started to revise it myself once, but didn't get much of an > answer > from anywhere about how to take it on either. I wasn't offered my > own new > wiki-thread though, maybe I didn't ask the right person... What, did you have problems finding my email address, too? :) >> > Sure, I can see what you mean, and that sounds very altruistic, to > keep > Elaine's material 'on file' so to speak. It's a highly defensible > position, > on the face of it, but in reality, we all know what being quietly > side-lined > means. History repeats itself time and time again. You get the people you deserve by the silent majority remaining silent. Just like all the politics inside Parrot. The silent remain silent and things continue on just as they did in the days of P5P. For years many have plaintively commented as to why there are so few women in perl, especially when compared to other projects, and you need only look to yourselves. There were any number of more tactful methods to do what has been done here, but the way of Perl is to get the knife and twist it hard because feeling good about any contribution must not be allowed. And the silent sit there and let it happen. Jarkko's thanks after 5 years leading up to 5.8 was a lot of bitching about 'core bloat'. The parting 'fuck you' is the perl way. e. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2435.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:26:41 +0000 Re: There is no cabal by Andy Lester On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:49 AM, Richard Foley wrote: > I think we're getting a bit off-topic though. This thread was about > Elaine's > Timeline, and her right to continue her project as she sees fit, > rather than > someone else to decide on behalf of the community that her project > should be > arbitrarily side-lined. Elaine has an absolute right to continue her project as she sees fit. No one could stop her from continuing her project if they wanted to. No one is advocating removing her page. No one has decided that her project should be arbitrarily side-lined. If people choose to work on Elaine's project, then no one can stop them. Who would be so foolish or mean-spirited as to even try? Starting a new, complementary (or competing) project to an existing project is the very core of open source. -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2434.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:01:27 +0000 Re: There is no cabal by Richard Foley On Monday 28 April 2008 18:41:00 Andy Lester wrote: > > There is no Perl Cabal > There usually is one, somewhere, if you look closely enough... ;-) I think we're getting a bit off-topic though. This thread was about Elaine's Timeline, and her right to continue her project as she sees fit, rather than someone else to decide on behalf of the community that her project should be arbitrarily side-lined. -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2433.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:55:23 +0000 Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html by Shlomi Fish On Monday 28 April 2008, Richard Foley wrote: > On Sunday 27 April 2008 21:43:35 Shlomi Fish wrote: > > the conversion to XHTML > > 1.1 (valid now) etc. the patch will be very huge, so I'll just send you > > the new file. You can find it here: > > > > http://www.shlomifish.org/perl-timeline-temp/PerlTimeline.html > > Excellent work. > Thanks. > > All that was said, I would still to contribute to the new Perl history > > effort > > on the TPF wiki. While I highly commend you for the effort you've put > > into the existing timeline, it's highly possible a collaboration between > > Andy Lester, Chris Dolan and I (and other people of the Perl community) > > can yeild something substantial and under a more usable licensing terms. > > We are going to respect the copyrights ownership of the existing timeline > > and not re-use material from there directly, without your permission. > > It's a real shame the perl6 people seem to be incapable of using the work > from the perl5 people - or have I misread the thread? > No, it's not about perl6 vs. perl5. It's about the original Timeline by Elaine vs. a new timeline (for Perl, probably both 5 and 6, though we'll have to see how everything progresses). Both timelines cover Perl. The differences are: 1. The original timeline was a static HTML page, while the new timeline is maintained as a wiki page. 2. The new timeline has a different licence. (Open-content, probably). 3. The new timeline is still much more incomplete and is in its infancy. I'm planning on contributing to both timelines. > I mean, Elaine sounds a bit pissed off, but I'm not really surprised when > she gets her project whipped from under her feet. That was not my intention, but may have seem like it. > Never mind that it's not > been updated for a while - surely we should respect her 'ownership' of that > corner and work to get co-editing facilities of it in some way, much like > when Michael gave out commit bits for the Test::More code to a choice group > of interested individuals some time ago. This kind of thing happens all > the time, it's called co-operation. > Yes, my intention was to update the timeline myself, and send my modifications upstream. I didn't raise the wiki was not my idea, though I admit it sounds tempting. > I don't see why we have to trash the old stuff, just because certain people > have positions of power and can (ab-)use it to side-step the issue. We're not going to remove the old timeline. Also, I'd like to continue updating it, and hopefully Elaine will accept my modifications. Of course, one problem with the old licencing terms is that it is not clear whether one can fork the document into a new modified one while still preserving the originator's ownership of the document. Maybe it's completely forbidden (i.e: if the document was CC-by-nc-nd for example.) What we are planning to do is to continue maintaining the old timeline while in the meanwhile working on a new one. This is similar to a software project still maintaining its old version while starting a complete re-implementation or a much grander refactoring. E.g: perl5 vs. Perl 6 (Pugs/Rakudo/etc.), or Bazzar "baz" which was a fork of Arch vs. Bazaar-NG "bzr" which was a re-implementation. (or Apache 2, etc.). Regards, Shlomi Fish ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ The Case for File Swapping - http://xrl.us/bjn7i The bad thing about hardware is that it sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. The good thing about software is that it's consistent: it always does not work, and it always does not work in exactly the same way. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2432.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:42:15 +0000 Re: There is no cabal by Andy Lester > I wasn't offered my own new > wiki-thread though, maybe I didn't ask the right person... What do you mean "offered my own new wiki-thread"? You don't get offered something on a wiki. You go and start it yourself. > I realise that you had not intended to make this much of an issue > out it, or > to trample on another (if aged) project. As I see it, it's happened > that > way, because of choices people-in-power have made as to how to react > to > someone who disagrees with them. And particularly to those people > who are > outside of the current magic-circle. What sort of power are you ascribing to these unnamed "people-in- power"? There is no power. There is no Perl Cabal who are allowed to do things on a wiki, and others who are not. Anyone can edit anything on the wiki. Even Elaine. It is the very nature of open source. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2431.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:41:27 +0000 Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html by Richard Foley On Monday 28 April 2008 18:03:23 Shlomi Fish wrote: > > > > http://www.shlomifish.org/perl-timeline-temp/PerlTimeline.html > > > > Excellent work. > > Thanks. > Well, I started to revise it myself once, but didn't get much of an answer from anywhere about how to take it on either. I wasn't offered my own new wiki-thread though, maybe I didn't ask the right person... > No, it's not about perl6 vs. perl5. It's about the original Timeline by > Elaine vs. a new timeline (for Perl, probably both 5 and 6 > As you might realise, I'm reading between the lines a bit, and it's perhaps not perl5/perl6, (that was a bit of a wide swipe), but it's the same people and cliques we're talking about. > > I mean, Elaine sounds a bit pissed off, but I'm not really surprised when > > she gets her project whipped from under her feet. > > That was not my intention, but may have seem like it. > I realise that you had not intended to make this much of an issue out it, or to trample on another (if aged) project. As I see it, it's happened that way, because of choices people-in-power have made as to how to react to someone who disagrees with them. And particularly to those people who are outside of the current magic-circle. > > I don't see why we have to trash the old stuff, just because certain > > people have positions of power and can (ab-)use it to side-step the issue. > > We're not going to remove the old timeline. Also, I'd like to continue > updating it, and hopefully Elaine will accept my modifications. > Sure, I can see what you mean, and that sounds very altruistic, to keep Elaine's material 'on file' so to speak. It's a highly defensible position, on the face of it, but in reality, we all know what being quietly side-lined means. -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2430.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:22:23 +0000 Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html by John Adams >From: Andy Lester <andy@petdance.com> >Plurality is the nature of open source, and it's an additive process, >not a subtractive one. Template Toolkit doesn't take away from >Mason. Devel::*Prof don't take away from Devel::DProf. Perlbuzz >doesn't take away from use.perl.org. Perl 6 doesn't take away from >Perl 5. Perl didn't take away from awk and shell. vim doesn't take >away from emacs. I think this is a bit oversimplified. These things can and do take resources from each other, whether we like to admit it or not. That taking of resources can leave a better final state than when we began, but at a cost. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2429.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:48:47 +0000 Re: Moving forward with history by Andy Armstrong On 28 Apr 2008, at 02:02, Elaine Ashton wrote: > On 27 Apr, 2008, at 20:37, Andy Lester wrote: >> >> I don't see any grief being caused whatsoever. If anyone else sees >> a problem with starting a new wikified version of the Perl history, >> then I'm sure he/she can say something. > > Why would they as the thing has sat there, peacefully, for nearly 10 > years. What, did you all run out of projects to run into the ground, > jump up and down about before moving on to something else to repeat > the process on? Who are "you all" in this characterisation? -- Andy Armstrong, Hexten http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2428.html Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:35:41 +0000